swathdiver
New member
Get the Dragoon. Then in January or so when the new molds come out, order the Kaido 255 grain Conical bullet mold for it and cast up some boolits for some real fun with 50 grains of BP!
Dragoon vs. 1858 New Model Army
- Thread starter Model12Win
- Start date
Model12Win
Moderator
I don't plan on keeping the gun around for primary home defense, I have much more appropriate guns for that. But we all know the state of affairs in the world, and if I'm going to have ANY gun around I want to know it's going to be at up to the task of defense as possible- even if it's primary use is recreational. I just included that remark to see which of these two guns were considered "better" for defense, not that that's the only reason for my choice between the two.
Thank you all for your knowledgeable advice, I'm learning a lot! I guess I should have included a poll in this thread.
Thank you all for your knowledgeable advice, I'm learning a lot! I guess I should have included a poll in this thread.
powder-n-lead
Inactive
If you by from a reputable source then you won"t be returning it! make sence? like cimarron or taylors.. enyaw..It's the "reserve the right to repair or exchange" thing that was actually a smart move on there part because this way they fix it and you get a good gun back. (every body wins) cabelas is great, but how many of there guns are going to equal the tuned urberti from a reputable shop? (and you do get the upgraded wolf sprigs in them! yes they make a dif when tunned.
I have bought many from both sorces and only sent the cabelas back and cabelas is very smart , they know how to keep you comming back I do like there easy return on things). like I said cimarrons are batch picked over and the ones that wont hunt are sent back, the rest are tunned as much as can be as they are there to make money just like any company out there, when buying from big box outlets you are taking much more of a chance, as these are sent straight from the factory as is, same for taylors, batch is picked thru and ones that do not cut it are sent back, and this is why they have such a good rep there .
lucky for me and some others out there I smith my own guns if I get one with bad timming but the b/c gap and fit and finish is good hey I fix it and now have what I want. (some can"t do there own) hey thats what we are here for in a big sence, I am not edison but I learned, just like home electrical, building a house or whatever learn from others, (hey the computer is the info hyway rite) and by the now and then mistakes we learn, we all have the ability to learn. I respect yours and other peoples posts, were here to help that is what makes it work here.
I have bought many from both sorces and only sent the cabelas back and cabelas is very smart , they know how to keep you comming back I do like there easy return on things). like I said cimarrons are batch picked over and the ones that wont hunt are sent back, the rest are tunned as much as can be as they are there to make money just like any company out there, when buying from big box outlets you are taking much more of a chance, as these are sent straight from the factory as is, same for taylors, batch is picked thru and ones that do not cut it are sent back, and this is why they have such a good rep there .
lucky for me and some others out there I smith my own guns if I get one with bad timming but the b/c gap and fit and finish is good hey I fix it and now have what I want. (some can"t do there own) hey thats what we are here for in a big sence, I am not edison but I learned, just like home electrical, building a house or whatever learn from others, (hey the computer is the info hyway rite) and by the now and then mistakes we learn, we all have the ability to learn. I respect yours and other peoples posts, were here to help that is what makes it work here.
Last edited:
You shouldn't use either for self defense. Sure, they'll work, but there's no reason to handicap yourself when your life might be at stake.
___
Depends on who and where you are defending.
What gun you shoot the most and points where you "aim" it. I am most comfortable with an 1860 or my Colt .45, but in town I often carry Colt '03 in a shoulder holster. When something is bothering the chickens it is a sxs 12 gauge.
Chased bears off my front deck with rubber buck shot! They never came back after getting a face full.
___
Depends on who and where you are defending.
What gun you shoot the most and points where you "aim" it. I am most comfortable with an 1860 or my Colt .45, but in town I often carry Colt '03 in a shoulder holster. When something is bothering the chickens it is a sxs 12 gauge.
Chased bears off my front deck with rubber buck shot! They never came back after getting a face full.
Howdy Powder-n-Lead!
I can respect yer advise/opinion bout buying from those places. I remember when Cimorron first started up. The thing about inspecting the guns and mandating a high standard was a good part of the promotion and still is I'd guess but.........there is still a small chance of getting a lemon.
The return policy may be better now than when I dealt with them. Things change and sometimes even change fer the better.
Hey! Do they put those Wolf springs in the cap&ballers too? Do the Wolf springs include the hand spring? I wouldn't know fer sure.
I had a lil trouble gettin a good pair of 45 Open Tops some years back. Too many years back probably because things change....sometimes fer the better.
I got a good 38 Open Top right off the bat but the dang 45's kept comin up with problems in the wedge fit area. Either the wedge couldn't go in far enough without being way too tight in the cylinder gap area or....the wedge all the way in had the barrels on too loose. I'd exchange at the retailer but did send and wait fer one to be fixed. It was too loose and came back tightened up some. Someone took a hammer to the arbor and peened it at the front of the slot. I got that one exchanged after another wait or two sending it back. The other two that were that way I just had the front of the arbor slots welded some and re-filed/fit a factory wedge and that solved the problems and they are still runnin fine. It is nice to be able to take the chance and fix on stuff yerself. It's always nice when ya don't flub it up too. I don't like havin ta work on a brand new gun.
One thing I look fer or at in a cap&baller or cartridge gun is the rifling in the barrels. I check out the muzzle where it can be apparent that the grooves are the same depth or "some of the grooves deeper on one side than the other". Sometimes a good bit of a difference and.....those barrels don't shoot worth a damn.
I can do a fix on some fer people with riflings deeper on one side than the other(that makes a gun shoot like the crown is flubbed up). I use a piloted reamer and take the crown off and leave the muzzle flat faced and perpendicular to the centerline of the bore. With the crown removed and shooting a bullet that fits the barrel well ,getting to the bottom of all the grooves regardless of differing depths, the gun will shoot much better(not like a gun with a bad crown).
A gun with grooves deeper on one side than the other actually makes a bad crown and lets gases erupt from one side before the other and that pushes the bullets and destabilizes them and they fly bad and hit bad with bad groups.
Once the crown is removed and flat faced off the gases erupt from the grooves simaltaneously and even and the gun shoots better even with uneven rifling grooves.
Italian revolvers,mostly cap&ballers but cartridge too, can have the uneven rifling grooves depth problem more often than some may realize.
The moral of that story is...I have bad luck and some defected guns find their way thru the inspections then on to the retailers. Retailers will usually exchange guns when they aren't fired yet. Maybe the ones I was getting were the only ones that weren't quite up to par. Retaliers don't seem to really like people that don't like uneven depth to rifling grooves in the barrels I've found. Most people don't check that type of thing. If yer gun shoots quirpy and there's no apparent reason try checking the rifling depth at the muzzle.
I've had a new Richards/Mason 44 fer years with a slightly off alignment of the chambers to the bore. I still gotta fix that one.My luck is that bad.
All things said and done.....I'd buy another one of their guns. I like the inscription stampd on top the barrels. I figger that's good fer resale even though I never re-sell any I buy.
The truth be known.....I've had trouble buying guns and parts from all the major players. Most of the time the retailers will make good fer an Hombre. The ones that came and went usually were the ones that had bad customer service. There used to be more sellers of the Italian guns.
Things aren't all that bad all things considered. I still buy Italian guns. I'm addicted to the dang things.
I like to buy from near/by retailers where I can see and handle the guns before a purchase. That makes me feel confident about the guns.
Some things aren't apparent until the guns are test fired though. ha ha ha ha
One thing I should add to answer better the original guestion bout which to buy between the Dragoon and the Remington is........the Remington is easier to break into the cap&baller world in my opinion. No hassels with the confusing wedge and cylinder gap and all that the Colts have. Less cap jams and all. The Remington was actually designed better than the Colts I thunk.
I can respect yer advise/opinion bout buying from those places. I remember when Cimorron first started up. The thing about inspecting the guns and mandating a high standard was a good part of the promotion and still is I'd guess but.........there is still a small chance of getting a lemon.
The return policy may be better now than when I dealt with them. Things change and sometimes even change fer the better.
Hey! Do they put those Wolf springs in the cap&ballers too? Do the Wolf springs include the hand spring? I wouldn't know fer sure.
I had a lil trouble gettin a good pair of 45 Open Tops some years back. Too many years back probably because things change....sometimes fer the better.
I got a good 38 Open Top right off the bat but the dang 45's kept comin up with problems in the wedge fit area. Either the wedge couldn't go in far enough without being way too tight in the cylinder gap area or....the wedge all the way in had the barrels on too loose. I'd exchange at the retailer but did send and wait fer one to be fixed. It was too loose and came back tightened up some. Someone took a hammer to the arbor and peened it at the front of the slot. I got that one exchanged after another wait or two sending it back. The other two that were that way I just had the front of the arbor slots welded some and re-filed/fit a factory wedge and that solved the problems and they are still runnin fine. It is nice to be able to take the chance and fix on stuff yerself. It's always nice when ya don't flub it up too.
I don't like havin ta work on a brand new gun.One thing I look fer or at in a cap&baller or cartridge gun is the rifling in the barrels. I check out the muzzle where it can be apparent that the grooves are the same depth or "some of the grooves deeper on one side than the other". Sometimes a good bit of a difference and.....those barrels don't shoot worth a damn.
I can do a fix on some fer people with riflings deeper on one side than the other(that makes a gun shoot like the crown is flubbed up). I use a piloted reamer and take the crown off and leave the muzzle flat faced and perpendicular to the centerline of the bore. With the crown removed and shooting a bullet that fits the barrel well ,getting to the bottom of all the grooves regardless of differing depths, the gun will shoot much better(not like a gun with a bad crown).
A gun with grooves deeper on one side than the other actually makes a bad crown and lets gases erupt from one side before the other and that pushes the bullets and destabilizes them and they fly bad and hit bad with bad groups.
Once the crown is removed and flat faced off the gases erupt from the grooves simaltaneously and even and the gun shoots better even with uneven rifling grooves.
Italian revolvers,mostly cap&ballers but cartridge too, can have the uneven rifling grooves depth problem more often than some may realize.
The moral of that story is...I have bad luck and some defected guns find their way thru the inspections then on to the retailers. Retailers will usually exchange guns when they aren't fired yet. Maybe the ones I was getting were the only ones that weren't quite up to par. Retaliers don't seem to really like people that don't like uneven depth to rifling grooves in the barrels I've found. Most people don't check that type of thing. If yer gun shoots quirpy and there's no apparent reason try checking the rifling depth at the muzzle.
I've had a new Richards/Mason 44 fer years with a slightly off alignment of the chambers to the bore. I still gotta fix that one.My luck is that bad.
All things said and done.....I'd buy another one of their guns. I like the inscription stampd on top the barrels. I figger that's good fer resale even though I never re-sell any I buy.
The truth be known.....I've had trouble buying guns and parts from all the major players. Most of the time the retailers will make good fer an Hombre. The ones that came and went usually were the ones that had bad customer service. There used to be more sellers of the Italian guns.
Things aren't all that bad all things considered. I still buy Italian guns. I'm addicted to the dang things.
I like to buy from near/by retailers where I can see and handle the guns before a purchase. That makes me feel confident about the guns.
Some things aren't apparent until the guns are test fired though.
ha ha ha ha One thing I should add to answer better the original guestion bout which to buy between the Dragoon and the Remington is........the Remington is easier to break into the cap&baller world in my opinion. No hassels with the confusing wedge and cylinder gap and all that the Colts have. Less cap jams and all. The Remington was actually designed better than the Colts I thunk.
Last edited:
Model12Win
Moderator
44 Dave, please read my previous post to clarify what I was saying. Thank you.
Well gang, I'm going to be visiting the Bass Pro Shop in Independence, MO this coming Monday on my way home for X-mas. I called ahead and they told me they have everything I need for a .44 percussion revolver, including real black powder. That was quite the relief because I've been hunting around everywhere for components but no places within reasonable driving distance has any balls, caps, or real black powder. A shame, but alsas, I live in Kansas and have family in Illinois, and the route I take home (I70) has a Bass Pro right off the highway there in Independence. Sweet!
I think it might be settled in this ol' brain of mine. I'm going to nab a New Model Army! I've just heard so many good things about them as a "starter" gun for a person new to the hobby. I want to thank everyone for there knowledge and time!
Well gang, I'm going to be visiting the Bass Pro Shop in Independence, MO this coming Monday on my way home for X-mas. I called ahead and they told me they have everything I need for a .44 percussion revolver, including real black powder. That was quite the relief because I've been hunting around everywhere for components but no places within reasonable driving distance has any balls, caps, or real black powder. A shame, but alsas, I live in Kansas and have family in Illinois, and the route I take home (I70) has a Bass Pro right off the highway there in Independence. Sweet!
I think it might be settled in this ol' brain of mine. I'm going to nab a New Model Army! I've just heard so many good things about them as a "starter" gun for a person new to the hobby. I want to thank everyone for there knowledge and time!
Model 12
Good choice. (Just my opinion)
Since you live so far away, you might want to pick up a coupla cans of the real stuff rather than just one.
In addition, you might want to consider casting your own round balls.
You will eventually get so good at it that your consistency will exceed Hornady balls.
Merry Christmas.
Good choice. (Just my opinion)
Since you live so far away, you might want to pick up a coupla cans of the real stuff rather than just one.
In addition, you might want to consider casting your own round balls.
You will eventually get so good at it that your consistency will exceed Hornady balls.
Merry Christmas.
Model12Win
Moderator
One reason I think I'm going with the Remy is because I also want to shoot Hodgdon 777 powder with it. Supposedly Hodgdon doesn't recommend using a charge over 35 grains in a BP revolver. The Remy however has a max charge right around 35 grains.
powder-n-lead
Inactive
like doc says you will cast some very good ones, and it is very self satisfing to make them yourself and the cost savings allows more bank for the buck.
powder-n-lead
Inactive
enyaw your rite, I think any more it is a crap shoot on the guns, I know any large company will spend only so much time (money) on gun inspection, and factorys like pietta and uberti it is a matter of when will they replace there cnc tooling cutters, how often are the machines re-calibrated, ect. and who can guess how many run down the line without a glance. they know it is cheaper buy far to deal with cost of returns vrs. building more perfect guns..
but I will say this, considering the enormous demand on production times to get these out,I think pietta, and uberti do a pretty good job, as in the early day production was much smaller. I am picky about all my guns and had to learn to fix em myself, or be at the mercy and expense of letting someone else handel it for me. opinions will vary, but I will work on the new ones because they can all be improved upon especially in the action tuneing dept. an it is very satisfiying to know I did it myself (pat on back now) yea you will mess some up but that is the way we learn and in no time a person will save alot of money and agravation. .
but I will say this, considering the enormous demand on production times to get these out,I think pietta, and uberti do a pretty good job, as in the early day production was much smaller. I am picky about all my guns and had to learn to fix em myself, or be at the mercy and expense of letting someone else handel it for me. opinions will vary, but I will work on the new ones because they can all be improved upon especially in the action tuneing dept. an it is very satisfiying to know I did it myself (pat on back now) yea you will mess some up but that is the way we learn and in no time a person will save alot of money and agravation. .
DD4lifeusmc
New member
Dragoon vs 1858
Both are well made guns, and for the most part you really don't need to worry much about fit finish and reliable operation regardless whom you buy from.
Personally a little touch up here and there to the wood or brass, and even the inner working is a good hobby, helps you to learn your gun and make it your own.
Yes the Dragoon can hold a larger powder charge, but doesn't have to.
Like reloading modern shells. Bigger, faster, more power doesn't necessarily translate to better accuracy.
You mentioned self defense. How did you mean it? On the street, in the house, or hunting.
On the street I would lean towards 1858 as it is smaller and lighter physically.
But I feel it would have adequate stopping power in most any common every day scenarios.
In the house either would get the job done.
To me both the colt and the Remmie have nice lines.
I own several of each. I roll paper cartridges and leave both loaded for months at a time. Other then the occasional bad cap, they have always went boom!
In the end it will come down to personal choice.
Enjoy whichever one you choose, and happy shooting!!
Both are well made guns, and for the most part you really don't need to worry much about fit finish and reliable operation regardless whom you buy from.
Personally a little touch up here and there to the wood or brass, and even the inner working is a good hobby, helps you to learn your gun and make it your own.
Yes the Dragoon can hold a larger powder charge, but doesn't have to.
Like reloading modern shells. Bigger, faster, more power doesn't necessarily translate to better accuracy.
You mentioned self defense. How did you mean it? On the street, in the house, or hunting.
On the street I would lean towards 1858 as it is smaller and lighter physically.
But I feel it would have adequate stopping power in most any common every day scenarios.
In the house either would get the job done.
To me both the colt and the Remmie have nice lines.
I own several of each. I roll paper cartridges and leave both loaded for months at a time. Other then the occasional bad cap, they have always went boom!
In the end it will come down to personal choice.
Enjoy whichever one you choose, and happy shooting!!
kilimanjaro
New member
Choose one or both, but buy a matched pair, sequential numbers. Also buy two spare cylinders, a powder flask, etc., when you can, and get a nice wood case made for the pair and all accessories. You'll have a real heirloom there.
Model12Win
Moderator
I meant possible home defense or SHTF back up. I really think I'm going to nab a Remy when the cash cow starts to moo
The government owes me a check any day now. Tomorrow I'm going to Bass Pro Shops on my way home for X-mas. I can't wait! I'm going to get everything I need to shoot my Father's '51 Colt Navy in .44 caliber, and I have a powder horn and spout coming in the mail. I'm excited to join the world of cap and ball revolvers!!!Jbar4Ranch
New member
I have found with Walkers & Dragoons that the frame will show signs of peening in fairly short order directly behind the wedge when shot repeatedly with full loads. They are definitely crowd pleasers at a Cowboy Action shoot though!
I've never owned an 1858 pattern before (unless you count ROA's), but just corrected that oversight two days ago by ordering three from Cabela's Christmas black powder revolver sale - the steel frame Pietta is normally $269.99 and was marked down to $179.99 before Christmas. I just checked and it's now $229.99. There is also a $20 rebate AND a free "starter kit" consisting of flask, balls, lube, capper, measure, and wads, normally priced at... $75, I think.
I've never owned an 1858 pattern before (unless you count ROA's), but just corrected that oversight two days ago by ordering three from Cabela's Christmas black powder revolver sale - the steel frame Pietta is normally $269.99 and was marked down to $179.99 before Christmas. I just checked and it's now $229.99. There is also a $20 rebate AND a free "starter kit" consisting of flask, balls, lube, capper, measure, and wads, normally priced at... $75, I think.
Jbar4Ranch
New member
That's odd... cached page maybe? I checked at work this morning when I read your post and it was $229.99, just like yesterday, and it's showing $229.99 on my laptop at home.