Dragoon vs. 1858 New Model Army

M

Model12Win

Moderator
Well... the title says it all.

I can't decide weather my first black powder revolver should be a Colt Dragoon 3rd model, or a Remington 1858 New Model Army. I am specifically looking at the iterations produced by Uberti, and imported by Cimarron. I have heard some claims that Cimarron only sells Uberti's best or has Uberti make the Cimarron guns to higher standards. I in NO WAY know for certain if this is true, but I have read this many times on the internet (for what THAT'S worth!) and I think I will be going with a Cimarron of whatever of these two guns I decide on. I will use the gun mostly for range use, with secondary home defense usage as well.

I've heard great things about the Remington, supposedly it is pretty reliable and easy for a modern revolver shooter (me) to transition over to. I also think it looks pretty neat. Also it takes less of a powder charge than the Dragoon, which could save me money but might not be as powerful as the Dragoon in the defensive role. But I have heard the Remy doesn't jam up with cap fragments as much as the Dragoon can. However-

I just love the Dragoon. It's so big and powerful looking. It has an even higher "cool" factor for me over the Remington, but, I've heard the gun isn't the best for a first time black powder shooter, for various reasons. Despite that I really am drawn do it. It's such a beast. For defensive use, it packs a larger powder charge for more power as well.

So, should I go for the Remington New Model Army, or the Dragoon? Thank you for your time. :D
 
Great question.
The debate of Colt (open top) versus Remington (top strap) will never be settled. Personal choice rules.

I am fond of the Colt myself and I use two Colt Dragoons in my Cowboy Action Matches. They are slow, cumbersome, finicky, dirty and smoky. And I love them dearly!!! Fun to shoot and fun to hear the spectators comment on them. My scores suck big, but my black powder stained teeth reflect the grin on my face while shooting them.

I also own a remington and find no fault with it whatsoever. I just enjoy my Colts more.

I have a new BP pistol on my Christmas Wish List. Cabellas has the Walker on sale.

As for caps jamming, it's part of the technology. Practice with it enough, and it's reliable. Either gun has issues.

Ask all the residents of the many "Boot Hill" communities... these guns were both man stoppers in their day.

My Dragoons:


I've also gotten conversions for them both to shoot cartridges if I want. These are pictured wearing the Kirst Konverters. Note the high tech "Cowboy" Electrical tape loading lever retention system...
 
The Dragoon won't jam up if you point it straight up when you cock the hammer (the spent cap will fall to the ground instead of in the mechanism). I'd go with that smoke wagon.
 
I am going to give you the best piece of advice, get both. Right now Cabelas has em both on sale. And both are not much more than you would pay for one of your modern pistols. Good shooting.
 
I like them both..

..and I echo the sentiments of those who say, get one or more of each, plus a coupla other models.

Now for the practical aspects of the question:

It really sounds like you are leaning toward the Dragoon. I can't blame you. Before you decide you should handle both revolvers

I personally think that if you might use the revolver as a home defense tool, you may want to consider the Remington. The "Colt Wave" works but you might ask yourself, "Why is it needed?" and "What is the intruder doing while I am trying to dump cap fragments out of the works?"

If you feel you have a serious need for home defense, you might want to slide on over to one of the cartridge forums.

Don't mean to start the argument about C and B for home defense.
 
I think that the Colts look much better, (hope that doesn't enrage the Remmie folks) BUT, I started with an 1858. I got a great deal from GB with 2 extra cylinders that I couldn't pass up. But then, I started buying Colts right after that from Cabela's because they were so cheap then. But I'm glad I started with the 1858. I've got a number of both now and also lots of extra 1858 cylinders. It's awesome to be able to just reel through those cylinders when I 1st get to the range, one after another. That's just cool fun playing the ol' Pale Rider cylinder swap.

I'm glad I chose the 1858 first though. But I love my Colts also. I own a dragoon, I love it, but that's one BIG piece of pistol right there. It's heavy, and that makes it even more different than modern revolvers. You might need to take that into consideration also.

So, here's a suggestion. Buy as many of all of them as you can. I hate to tell you this, but you'll end up doing that anyway. They are fairly cheap and can be sent to your mailbox as fast as you pay for them. :p
 
Thank you friends for the advice, greatly appreciated. I have handled a replica Colt Walker at a gun show recently. To be honest, I didn't find it to be uncomfortably heavy. I expected it to be heavier than it was and more awkward in the hand, but this didn't feel too bad. Then again, I am so used to shooting a 45 oz. Ruger GP-100 6" bbl, which might explain it. I have never handled a '58 New Model Army. Like many have recommended, I might just have to purchase both of these pistols, but I'm still sort of torn about which to buy first! :)
 
the good ol boys at cimaron import ubertis and then there on board gunsmiths give them an action job, and they install wolf springs.. they are nice, my last one was a .45 evil roy and it was tuned! they reject anything that dose not tow the line.. I also have a uberti 3rd model dragoon and it is alot of fun to shoot to be sure, good luck on your decision but I think you should get em both, cause sooner or latter you will:):)
 
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As far as home protection with the Dragoon or the Walker; don't worry about cap jams, you fire the first shot the BG covers his ears in pain and shock, then you beat the crap out of him with that big old hunk of iron!!! LOL.

You'll love whatever you buy and then buy the other cuz you just can't live without it.
 
Since you've handled a Walker, the Dragoon is pretty similar. It's slightly lighter and easier to manipulate than the Walker, and has a better loading lever.
The Dragoon's grip is very comfortable, and accommodates larger hands well.

The Remington NMA is a much handier gun, but has a somewhat awkward grip.
You'll notice even from pictures that the space between the frontstrap and the trigger guard is pretty small, and can hurt your knuckles.
If you've ever seen a Remington 1875, that space was made much larger, even larger than on Colts.

The Remington's chambers will hold up to about 40 grains of powder and still have room to seat a ball.
A Dragoon will hold around 50. Most folks don't load max charges in either gun.

I prefer Colts because they handle fouling better and are easier to clean. Being able to take the barrel off and just hold it under a running faucet to flush out the grime is just fantastic.
With that said, Colts are inferior to Remingtons in every other respect. Remingtons are simpler, more modern in construction, have less screws, less cap jams, better sights, and hit closer to POA out of the box.
Colts tend to shoot egregiously high, while if anything Remingtons will shoot slightly low.

You can fix the Colt cap jamming by filling in the safety notch on the hammer face with J-B Weld, a known CAS trick.
Of course, you could just tilt the gun to the side as you cock. Good luck remembering to do that if there's an intruder in your home, though.
 
... I am specifically looking at the iterations produced by Uberti, and imported by Cimarron. I have heard some claims that Cimarron only sells Uberti's best or has Uberti make the Cimarron guns to higher standards. I in NO WAY know for certain if this is true, but I have read this many times on the internet (for what THAT'S worth!) and I think I will be going with a Cimarron of whatever of these two guns I decide on. I will use the gun mostly for range use, with secondary home defense usage as well...
Click to expand...

I've also heard a Cimarron tends to be nicer than the same model Uberti. It may be true but could also just be sample to sample variation. My Cimarron Model P SAA is nice but I've seen nice Uberti Cattleman examples too.

Anyway, I bet you'll love whatever you get but I wouldn't recommend using a blackpowder pistol for self defense as there have been significant advancements over the last 150 years!
 
a Walker or Dragoon will certainly provide the wow factor when loaded to near max.
But my vote is for the Remington.
Modern design, more suited for self defense.
Better barrel to frame alignment for consistent accuracy.
Using one with 777 powder greatly reduces fouling problems.
I do have a desire for a Colt '60, though, just 'cause it's so purty.
 
You shouldn't use either for self defense. Sure, they'll work, but there's no reason to handicap yourself when your life might be at stake.
 
Practice with anything and it will be fine as long as you feel good about it.
Not my first (or second) choice for home defense but if it's the only gun in the house you are far better off with it than without it.

Many a cowboy or rancher fell asleep with one near to hand...
 
Practice with anything and it will be fine as long as you feel good about it.
Not my first (or second) choice for home defense but if it's the only gun in the house you are far better off with it than without it.

Many a cowboy or rancher fell asleep with one near to hand...
Click to expand...

Yep, but that was when the bad guys were packing a similiar weapon. Again, not saying it wouldn't work but I'm not taking that risk, not when there are so many better alternatives. IF you decide to use it for self defense, at least get a cartridge conversion.
 
just a note about cimarron.. they inspect each uberti recieved and each one leaving there shop, your chances are better of getting a good one , but you will pay more than run of the mill take your chances guns..
I get mine from taylors and have always recieved good ones, also buy from cabelas from time to time (good sales) as they have the best return policy there is, and quick too..:D
 
I'd just plan on getting both the Remy and the Dragoon. Get the Dragoon first since you lean towards it.
I'd read Cimorrons return policy. The way I see it reads and the way it's been fer me in the past is... It's the "reserve the right to repair or exchange" thing. Who wants to buy a new gun and then send it back and WAIT fer the inept gunsmith to "fix it".
I've seen too many complaints on the forums about people getting rusty guns back ect.ect.ect.
I've gotten guns from all the retailers/importers I've bought from that had defects. That's part of the Italian gun gamble. Most all defected in the cap&ball realm. Cap&ballers have a less stringent tolerance compared to cartridge gun.
It's a good Idea to call and have customer service explain what the "return policy" really is.
Cabelas has the best return in my opinion. Especially if(at any retailer)....the defects are found before the gun looses it's,"as new", status.
If you "shoot the gun" and then discover the defects....it's more difficult,in most cases, to return for an exchange.
It's best to....use tissue paper ect.ect.ect. to protect the cylinder from marks from the bolt if testing the action. Best to keep the "working the action" to a minimum.
Pietta and some Uberti cap&ballers are prone to getting marks from the bolt on the cylinder...especially the "bolt hits the edge of the cylinder notch and peens it in and out into the notch" thing. Loosen the trigger/bolt spring screw a turn before working the action to avoid marks on the cylinder that makes the gun less than "as new".
I'm speaking from a good deal of experience. I own more cap&ballers than I can keep track of the number. Fixed more than I can keep track of. Fixed for myself or helped others fix them.
One thing I know fer sure is to talk to the retailer and discuss the "return policy". Cabelas has the best in my opinion. Call before returning so you know the right way to do it.
The quality of all the manufacturers cap&ballers has really improved since I got into them in the early eighties. You young'ins have a better cap&baller world to start in now a days fer sure.
As fer the Walkers and the Dragoons loading levers.....it's not a hard fix to keep them up where they should stay when firing. Find out from places like this one the right thing to do and then be careful and do it the right way the first time or....have someone you can trust as a gunsmith or Kitchen Table Gunsmith that has a little mechanical apptitude to help ya fix the levers to stay up.
It's nice to not have to use tape or leather straps unless you like that kinda thing.
My recommendation fer powder charge in the Dragoon is 40gr.FFFg and the Walker 45 gr.FFFg Holy Black. That load fer each will,at close range, send a 45 size ball clean thru the average person. My max fer each respectively is 45 gr. FFFg and 50gr. FFFg. That 60 gr. max fer the Walker isn't good fer the gun or the person loading it. Fits kinda tight. Try 45-50gr. FFFg first and you'll see that's plenty. Plenty is even the 28gr. service load used in the 1860 Army Colt.
The best accuracy I believe is with the first loads mentioned above. Ask the ground hogs(wood chucks) that are pushin up daisys on the old farm I used to live and shoot on......ifin you can communicate with the dead. Those pesky critters can really dig some holes in the pastures and crop fields. Big enough to break a tractor or really jolt the driver hittin them. Vermin they are fer sure.
Black Powder is no pinky just because smokeless is more velosity and pressure. Black Powder isn't a toy powder by any means. It's some powerfull stuff and should be respected.
Anywhooooo.....the powder charges I recommend are not as hard on the guns. Maximum charges all the time shorten the longevity of the guns.
The Remington?
Everyone should own one. Good guns. Function well with a good design. Load one with thirty gr. FFFg black to each chamber and they are lethal and more so with 35 gr. FFFg. No problem with the Remington because it doesn't handle the charges of the Walker or the Dragoon.
When people speak of cap&ballers fer self defense I wonder if they know that the lead round ball makes one of the worst wound channels there is?
Anyone knows the cartridge guns are more reliable but if a cap&baller is all you have,and you know the pitfalls to minimize, they are certainly up to the task. Better than nothing fer sure.
Close one eye like you would ifin it's dark and a flare goes off or you won't see good fer too many seconds. The flash from a cap&baller will blind a person fer a lil while when it's dark but if you close one eye you'll still see some after the flash. Don't close yer shootin eye though. ha ha ha ha
One good thing to know to make them better fer self defense is the use of those things sold called "Cap Guards". Those little red bands put on each cap keep them "on" the cones/nipples fer sure. No cap jams. Fire away as fast as you can with those "cap guards". Caps "will" stay on.
So with the "cap guards" and powder kept dry I'd use a cap&baller fer home defense. Two would be better.ha ha ha ha
Dry powder is more than it seems. Dry means knowing how often to change the load. Not real often when the chambers are sealed on each end but..... knowing the way condensation can ruin a load is important.
Heat changes to the gun does it. Take a cold gun into a warm house and chances are the powder will get reduced or ruined by condensation. Could get misfires too from condensation.
 
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