Doubts about the USP

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Mylhouse

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Hey dudes-this will probably have some scuds sent my way but here goes...
I always seem to read and hear about how great the USP's are. I like the gun, especially the control lever and array of features, but... I seriously question the toughness and durability of the pistol. I always hear about how indestructible the pistol is and how well made and fitted it is. I've handled a few of them, and here are my observations.
1) Those teeny tiny slide rails look pretty insignificant. They are even much smaller than the Glock. My gun had a little bit of polymer on the right rear slide rail being sheared off, leaving a rough and uneven surface.
2) There is a significant amount of play between the slide and frame, probably mostly due to the unnecessarily small rails.
3) There is WAY more barrel to slide movement when in battery than in a SIG, for example. So where is this great "fit" I keep hearing about?
Having said all that, I found my USP to be 100% reliable. I just sold it because the trigger wouldn't let me shoot the gun as well as my SIGs or my Kimber. By the way, how come you never hear of a glock or HK being given the FIRE torture test? :)
All right, let me have it!
 
You're right. I went the same way - read,
got exicted, went to the store and asked to
handle one. It was enough to forget about USP
forever. Trigger pull was so bad, that
everything else looked good, particularly in DA. I was able to flex the front part of the frame with just a finger pressure. It felt like a cheaply made pistol and when I had a second chance later to examine USP in detail, it proved to be a cheaply made pistol, inside and outside.

But it works, which is good news. The bad news is that HK USP is priced way out of reasonable range for such kind of product. But it's not my business, so I let everybody who wants one to buy one and enjoy it.
 
If you think HK is made so cheaply what do you think about Glock ? Ever seen there slide to frame fit. You can look under the sliode and see clear to the other side.
 
Oris2000 - I felt the same way about Glocks when I first became aware of them. Being able to see daylight through the slide/frame was not encouraging. Now I have 5 of them and they have proven themselves to me through thousands of rounds of 9mm, 40 and 45. My only problem has been breaking a G19 after approx 15k rounds. No malfunctions from any of the others. Do yourself a favor and try one out.
 
Sean2001 - That last one was for you. Sorry. Incidentally, my son has a USP and it works just fine but it is a large gun, if you like the size of a Beretta 92 you are going to love the USP45.
 
What has ever led you to believe that the H&K would not be durable or tough? Do you have evidence that it is not? I suppose you'd say the same about a GLOCK? It seems you are basing a lot of your opinion on your assessment of "those teeny tiny" slide rails. Are massive slide rails necessary for a gun to be tough/durable? I have'nt experienced the play in the slide and rails you are talking about. I have handled and shot quite a few USP's and have'nt seen it. On the other hand I have picked up Kimbers that have slide/rail play.

When all is said and done, I would much rather have a USP in hand (bad trigger and all) when things go south than a Kimber. As you said yourself, the USP goes boom when you pull the bad trigger. From what I read the same can't be said for the Kimbers. Shake
 
Sean2001, I do not know about Glock.
I have nothing against HK USP being made
cheaply, which is often a big plus for military, but it is my opinion that sale price for HK is too high in relation to the
cost of production and does not reflect value of the gun. I honestly do not care, and
if you guys like it so much and don't mind
HK USP trigger, I respect your choice. I just compare it to CZ-75B, which can be had for around $300, and my silly mind just refuses to except HK USP for $600. If you have a chance to try CZ-75B,
you would get a good idea on why I'm kind of
hesitating to accept "legend" of HK USP being worth $600. But, it's your money and your choice.
 
I had the some of the same reservations about the USP at first too. But, to be fair, the gun never failed me once in the time I had it. My concerns were mostly with the plastic internal parts. The exposed hammer spring made the magazine wiggle with every trigger pull and that bugged me a bit. Also, my USP never had the same trigger pull twice. It would vary significantly from one pull to another. The end result was that I could never hit a damn thing with it. It slowly found its way to the back of the gun safe and I finally sold it to a neighbor (who absolutely loves it).

I think they are a very well made, durable and reliable handgun but liking one is a matter of personal taste. A bit over-hyped if you ask me.

Sierra, Speaking as a guy who likes the feel of the Beretta 92... the USP .45 is still too damn big! ;).
 
The one I looked at seemed a little fragile also. The trigger is awfully thin. Looks like it might break if you pull it too hard. The safety is what really bothered me. Its plastic! It also looked like it would break if you applied too much pressure. And I have heard of the takedown pin falling out of one when tipped on it's side with a little rearward pressure on the slide. Now all this is just my opinion after looking at one. It may be the toughest little thing around, but it just doesn't inspire confidence. Other than that, I think the design and feel are great. I just wish it was built on an alloy or steel frame.
 
Shake-the only way I was comparing the USP to the Kimber was in the trigger pull. There is no comparison. Having said that, I have had a total of 3 failures (all to go completely into battery) in my Kimber and they all happened once I put a Wilson Shok-Buff in. I have put about 1500 rounds through that gun. The USP 9 I had never had a malfunction. The only thing it ever did wrong was to not allow me to manually unload a round from the chamber when I was using that Russian steel case crap. I don't blame the gun. As a matter of fact, I would feel just as well armed with the USP as with any of my handguns, maybe even more so than my Kimber. But that is not the issue.
Now if you are to tell me that the overall fit (barrel to slide most importantly and slide to frame secondly) is better on an average USP than on an average Kimber, than there is nothing else I can say, because you obviously have blinders on. I have absolutely nothing against HK. I try to be completely objective and I just want the best possible pistol, not just for the money, but the best, period.
What I am truly saying is, I don't believe all the hype. I put Glocks and HK's on the same exact plane. The P95 looks tough, but I have to question the use of polymer slide rails. I also question the so-called "torture tests". Once again, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but good debate sparks thought.
 
I have a USP Compact 9 along with my Glocks. I agree that they are pricey NIB. I waited until a used one made its way in my shop. Sure doesn't have a match trigger thats for sure :)

Negatives for me on Gun:

Grips are abrasive to me(solved with a Houge Handall)
Don't like the stock sights at all (Plan on putting Ashley Express ones on)

Pluses:

Accurate
Fits my hand better than my Glocks
Absolutley eats anything I feed it
Even for its size, very concealable with a Blade-Tech IWB

The full size USP's feel way too big for my hands. You know that saying...opinions are like....and that includes mine :)
 
I found the USP 45 a joy to shoot. Unfortunately I carried it Condition 1 in and open top holster. Inside the hammer notch is an access hole, on the left as you look into that notch while holding the gun in a firing grip. Perhaps this may account for the large amount of foreign debris that made it's way inside of the gun. I see USP 40s that "click" and no bang when loaded. I am aware of a LE agency that had this happen on a large scale basis. Problem was unresolved and another brand of polymer pistol was acquired.

Kilroy...
...was here
 
Some people...

Those tiny rails are more than tough enough.

The USP 45 handles 45 Super without mod, even Glock won't do that as well.

The 40/45/357 have thicker chambers with more support. Ammo that just blows cases in USPs ruptures barrels, cracks slides/frames in Glocks (sheriff dept here found that out this summer).

Has passed NATO mil-spec, DEA fired over 10K each through 3 pistols w no problems and got 2.4 inch avg groups hand fired from sand bag rest w duty ammo.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

INS/BP plainclothes will start using the USP compact. The previously authorized only Berett and SIG. The Glock wasn't as reliable as the Beretta, SIG or HK in their test.

Probably cuzz real agents shot hot ammo (155/1200 JHPs) on real ranges; the FBI Glocks fired a 50/50 mix of wimpy FMJ/JHP (165/970-1070) by company reps under controlled conditions w an FBI FTU observer and were allowed to discount "shooter induced" jams. 2 out of six FBI Glocks broke parts under 20K rounds (only DQd if before 10K). I guess a 33% fail rate under 20K is OK? No broken parts allowed in INS/BP tests.

There are no perfect guns. The USP has done better in tougher tests than the Glock has. So have the Beretta and SIG. So there! :)

Use what you like , don't trash the rest.

They are ALL good guns.

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I own a USP and have no doubts, fears, or worries about it. I uderstand where may of your worries may come from, but they are completly groundless. Most of the concerns about plastic parts and small slide rails are really over rated. If you have been shooting for a while you may remeber that someone always worried about the new way of doing things. Have you ever heard of the problems when these items came out: semi-automatic pistols,plastic rifle stocks, glock pistols, rifle scopes, fuel injected engines, computers, and even representative government. The great and horrible problems that seemed so obvious to so many people with these items have yet to materialize. If you do not like the USP, fine, but don't think that it is a bad design. I can assure you that the pistol will not wear out any time soon.
As a point of information, the slide rails are very low stress parts of the pistol. The lockup may not be the greatest, but remember that the pistol was designed around heavy use in horrible environments and tolerances are bound to be loose. The sigs are the only pistols I have ever seen that can have both tight tolerences and great reliability. As for the trigger, you can always get it worked on. I know that it shouldn't need it, but it might. My USP has broken itself in and now is perfectly fine. And finally, dont worry about it! The pistol is fine, and is more accurate than almost all of its owners.
 
A law enforcement agency in the US once invited several handgun mfg's for promoting their handguns.(which agency I forgot).

The mfg's were HK, Glock, SIG arms and Beretta. The HK rep was up first, he walked up the range(indoor range that is) took the USP pistol he carried and threw it downrange like he was pitching in a World Series final.
Gun landed on the hard floor, he took it in his hand and said "now I am ready to start". Results where great after firing. When the officers who were to judge the guns asked which mfg rep dared to do the same to their guns. Only SIG stepped up the line. The rest where reluctant to do so. The agency bought HK's.

Now this is with all due respect to Beretta, SIG and Glock. All make 1st rate handguns. But it does show the confidence Heckler and Koch have in their weapons.

That said, I own a USP compact 9mm. And its a damn accurate pistol. Tough and never failed me. It eats anything I fed it, factory and handloads. Trigger action in double action is satisfactory, but not as smooth as a SIG. Single action(the mode I do most of my shooting with) is crisp. A gun I am willing to defend my life with.



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Disperse you rebels, disperse and lay down your weapons at once
 
If you guys say that the gun is tough enough, then I'll keep that in mind if the opportunity arises again that I can pick another one up for a decent price. Now I don't have all the answers (some say I'm a monkey spank with no clue), but I don't believe that the USP 45 will handle Supers because it is a more robust weapon than a Glock, per se. I think it is more of a function of how the chamber is designed, i.e. how the cartridge seats itself in the chamber. I haven't shot a usp 45, but from what I could tell, the bullet sits much deeper in the chamber of the usp, unlike a standard 1911, where a significant portion of the case is sticking out of the chamber. Of course, with my lack of experience, I could be wrong.
 
Kuiper,

With all due respect this sounds like urban myth. I've heard nearly identical versions with the exception that they involve Glock and Beretta sales reps.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
No sooner do I defend my USP compact, I am here now to condem it(well sort of) :)

Went to the range right after I made my post this morning. Brought along my 32 with 23 barrel in it and my 35 with a KKM .357 Sig barrel. Also shot my HK for the first time without the Houge grip. Shot great groups with both Glocks.....maybe it was the stars, the moon, my socks were too loose whatever...I su*ked with the HK..all over the paper, the recoil seemed harsher than my Glock .40 and I DID notice the mag flexing for the first time (no Handall) while firing. And while cleaning, a pin that connects to the safety fell out to boot! Almost like because I stood up for it today, it decide to turn on me :)

Hmmm..19 is a nice number

[This message has been edited by grapeshad (edited November 27, 1999).]
 
Mylhouse, I don't believe I have blinders on. I did NOT (will not) say the USP's are better than Kimbers. I DID say that the USP's I have handled and fired have not exhibited a lot of play in the slide to frame fit. In fact, before I posted I checked mine to see if I could see what the fuss was about. Mine is tight as can be. I also said I have handled Kimbers that had slide to frame play. In short those have been my experiences. I do think slide to frame fit is a little over rated. The slides of most production auto's probably ride on as little steel as the USP's simply because of machining tolerances (if you were able to see how much contact there actually was at any given time). Are USP's better than Kimbers? Well, they are apples and oranges. I think it depends on the application. I'm still trying to figure out how Oris was able to flex the frame on one. I checked mine and several at the gun show today and couldn't get them to budge. I can get flex in the grip area where the polymer is not as thick, but none in the frame. I used a lot more than my finger to try. When you say you don't believe all the hype, what hype are you refering to? Although the H&K may not be my favorite, I believe it is a very well made firearm. I always hear people complaining about the price of the H&K. I agree that the compact versions are overpriced, but I bought my new full-sized model for under $500 NIB. I don't consider that to be too much to pay for a quality firearm. I don't think there is a "best" pistol out there. That's why we buy so many. My intent wasn't to flame you. I don't have anything against Kimber either, I don't even own one to compare the two. I buy and use what works for me. Shake
 
Shake,

It was the very front portion of the HK USP9,
in front of the trigger guard. I applied
some finger pressure, honestly, and it "reacted" like a spring, with noticable
deflection. Try it again.
 
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