?Double Taps? Why not Quadruple Taps or...?

Rosco,
I agree about the reasons that you state concerning the guy not going down for "whatever" reason.

Its been a loong time since I read the reports concerning the physiological responses to major shock to the body, but I am familiar w/the topic inasfar as generalities. The plan "B" is very important for the reason you mentioned. From what I remember, the body doesn't react to the initial shock and become "immune" to painful trauma for a couple of seconds. This leads me to 2 conclusions:
1) There is time to give sustained shots to center mass, (which depending on variables, might come close enough to spine to disrupt central nervous system), for those few extra shots before the traumatic nervous rxn would shut down.
2) The plan "B" would be far better than pausing and going back to plan "A" again: Unless we are talking about pelvic girdle shots, which seem apropriate in certain circumstances, (yet off topic from this particular thread).

It has been recommended to me by a high ranking LEO that I start wearing a kevlar vest. In a purely "civilian" context in completely nonagravating circumstances, I have been shot at several times. I am not comparing my situation to those of our loyal public servants, but what has been brought up reminds me of his recommendation. I've never invested in a vest for the same reason that most people (even criminals) don't. Its inconvenient and I imagine hot and somewhat uncomfortable. I live in realatively low risk occupation, at least as far as people are concerned. Thanks for the info Rosco. You add much to the scope of this topic.

PS: Dennis,
Same goes for you, friend. I was writing while you posted and missed it first time down. You bring up one of the most important things IMO about crime prevention and tactics. Have a mental picture and plan of different schenarios. Man, that sure is important. I remember times that I was in my prime physically, when I was totally unprepared mentally, because we were caught off guard with no preset, mentally/physically trained strategy. The BG KNOWS what he plans to do and initiates his assult. We must respond and act the best we know how. Too late if we have to stop and think how to handle the situation while going through the stress of it. I won't bore anyone w/personal stories, but your advice applies to all of them.

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited October 20, 1999).]
 
I agree with Rosco- the reason why plan A failed is irrelevant. You don't have time to puzzle that one out. Your evaluation should be limited to "Is he down, or is he still up?" If he is still up, repsond with Plan B, which should be, IMHO, to attempt a head shot, and seek cover. How many shots comprise paln A is also irrelevant, to a certain extent. I personally would not fire 6 shots, first off, because that is my gun's mag capacity, and because of the time required. I would not go for more than 3.

There is also the legal factor you mentioned. As it was explained to me by my uncle, who is a sherriff's deputy- suppose you fire 6 shots into him. The medical examiner does an autopsy, and he finds that it is the 3rd that killed him. Shots 4,5, and 6 constitute excessive force, and you will probably be charged with a crime for it. I know, it's crazy how the law works, but that's life.

In a nutshell, 2 is not a "magic number". If you prefer to double-tap, fine. If you prefer to triple-tap, fine. Fire as many shots as you feel necessary, jsut don't overdo it- this is where training comes in.

------------------
Lady Justice has been raped, truth assassin;
Rolls of red tape seal your lips, now you're done in;
Their money tips her scales again, make your deal;
Just what is truth? I cannot tell, cannot feel.

The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the things you say
I can't believe, I can't believe the price we pay- nothing can save us
Justice is lost, Justice is raped, Justice is gone
Pulling your strings,Justice is done...
Seeking no truth, winning is all,
Find it so grim, so true, so real....

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
The rule of survival is continue to shoot until he stops doing what he did to cause you to start! If two in the chest doesn't make him stop then continue on with the head. No pause just 123 . If you haven't stopped him by that get some space between you and he and keep shooting. It is going to be a case of proving you had to do what you did but that is still better than a deep cold grave. As we all know a pistol is not a lethal weapon . many more survive being shot than die because of being shot. That is an argument for carrying the biggest you can handel..
 
I think we all agree more or less. If the BG isn't going down, you shoot until he does. The caveat is to avoid contiunation of an unsucessful course of action.

For someone who trains enough, there probably isn't much difference between 2 shots or 3 to 4 shots. For the average joe however, I think the tendency would be to wind up spraying rounds.

Remember, shooting in self defense is a matter of solving the problem. Where do you draw the line between, shooting until the BG is down or just wasting bullets? I think for the average Joe 2 shots works well enough. It's only a problem if we take that as gospel and are unable to improvise and adapt to solve the problem.
 
Gale,

Right to the point. You put it very susinctly. The 1-2-3 method is not what is in question. You said that a pistol is not a lethal weapon because the majority of those shot w/one survive. That is one reason that I propose the few extra shots.
I've been thinking along the lines of what Mute said, "For someone who trains enough, there probably isn't much difference between 2,3, or 4 shots." I am not questioning tactics, only the number of rounds at this point. Lets presume we are talking about someone who does train on a regular basis. Someone who invests in a lot of ammo, reloads for practice and goes to a good handgun defense school. He isn't LE, but still has to be aware of his response to lethal threat in terms of a)Living the rest of the day and b) Legal reprocussions esp. from the DA. and jury. Jedi brings up the point of LE seeing the more the victim shoots as excessive force. Sounds like a good point to consider. IF the guy IS still standing as 6th round is rapidly fired into his body from a compensated 1911 and goes down w/ the head shot. (Not continuing to fill his limp body w/lead unless the gun is still in hand). Would THIS be considered "excessive force"by LEOs and DA? 6 Shots. I though more lead is better IF that lead enters the body immediately and before the body hits the ground. Especially w/an enemic weapon like a handgun. Is more better?

By the way, the high ranking LEO who told me to buy a kevlar vest took Mas Ayoobs classes. He told me that he would have arrested me IF I fired back in self defense against a guy who shot at a friend and I as we innocently walked down RR tracts to go fishing. Don't ask me the guys motive for shooting us OR the LEOs motive for arresting me, had I defended us. I don't know. We were in an open field w/no where to hide and I ran a zig/zag pattern around 50yds to cover.
 
Even though I was always taught to double tap then run a failure drill I believe that you should keep shooting until the threat is incapacitated. The thing is, instead of firing a long sustained burst of 4 or 5 rounds I'd shoot 2 or 3 double taps. This way if the target goes down immediately I don't waste extra rounds and can quickly aquire another target, but if it doesn't I would have returned to my natural point of aim and would be prepared to engage w/ a second double tap. I haven't been in combat yet, but I doubt the extra quarter of a second I waste to stop after the initial 2 rds. would allow the target to engage me before I fire the next 2. As to lowering the weapon after the first double tap that sounds like bad juju. Another thing about double tapping is that it saves ammunition at the range. If all the team members fired 2 rds. at each target you'd get twice as much training compared to firing 4 or more rds. I also read somewhere that the British SAS started the practice of double tapping not the FBI.
 
Personally, I believe in the evaluation step but it would be VERY quick. One would probably not be able to hear a pause, since the only thing really needing evaluation IMHO is whether the threat is still vertical. I do not mean that as a joke, two are gonna go out real quick, but I can't think of a reason to fire again unless I can still see a threat in my sights. If so, I'm gonna plan on putting a couple high and then follow up with a couple low (legs) then middle, etc. Scatter 'em around, something will get his attention.

I know the drill about appearing "vicious" or whatever, but I hope to never be needing to shoot someone I actually know, and I certainly will NOT be shooting anybody who is not attempting to assault me while I am trying to escape. That translates to I plan to kill him, not scare him a bit. If he's dead after two, the other 11 didn't hurt him a bit. If he's not, I need to shoot him some more. Once he goes down the evaluation becomes more involved, if he is not a threat anymore fall back and regroup.
 
A few of the posts are touching on what Jeff Cooper calls "problem 2"...that is, surviving the legal aftermath of a self-defense shooting. One will probably be much better off to expunge the word "kill" from this sort of discussion. In the context of self-defense we are (or should be) shooting to STOP. The distinction is not a frivolous one.

Rosco
 
Speaking of "legal aftermath", it's important to remember your frame of mind as you tell the first officer on scene what happened. Your frame of mind is critical to the subjective interpretation of your intent when involved in a deadly defensive shooting. My CCW instructor here in Texas pointed this out no less than **20** times.

The Texas penal code section that pertains to the Concealed Handgun licensee, when referring to the use of deadly force, repeatedly states:

"...deadly force is justified if the actor reasonably believes their life is in danger, harm to them is imminent or theft of property is imminent bla bla bla. The key here is your state of mind. My instructor was a pretty good one. He said if we ever have to shoot to protect our lives or property, the first words out of our mouth when the police arrive should be "I was scared to death, I thought he was going to kill me..."

I'm sure this might be different in other states but this is important to keep in mind.

Be safe.

CMOS

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Join GOA, NRA and vote.
 
Equalizer he may have arrested you as is his prerogative but you would have not been held or prosecuted. If you are under fire you have the right to defend yourself. In this part of the world you can use deadly force to protect some one who's life is threatened. or stop a crime in which some ones life is in danger. As in a holdup man holding a gun on his victim.

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Gale McMillan
 
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