DOUBLE TAP DEFENSE derringer range reports?

B

Biff Tannen

New member
Derringer fans:
Us derringer fans have been scoping out the Double Tap Defense derringer for a few years, and followed the soap-opera-esque battle with former manufactuer Heizer...
There's a few YouTube videos indicating that there are (or were?) problems with design and reliability...
Us derringer fans would appreciate very much if those who've shot one could share their range experiences...
Any / all details would help our community and will be greatly appreciated.
PS- please, no comments from derringer haters, and please, no comments about derringer high-prices. Let's please keep this thread positive so we can learn.
Thank you, stay safe, and God bless!
 
Handled one of those little cannons today.

I bet they kick!

Sure wish they could handle .45 Auto Rims. Nice 250 gr LSWC at 750 ought to do it.

Deaf
 
Erich:
Thanks for that link to the review! I saw those YouTube videos that the author had uploaded, but it was interesting to read the author's account of his dealings with the Double Tap manufacturer.
It's possible he just had a "lemon" but one would think that after the gun was reconditioned by the manufacturer the first time, his problems would have been over... Every gun has a bad review or two out there, so maybe it was just "one of those things", or maybe my hopes that this will be a quality firearm might he "wishful thinkin"on my part. Hmmm...

That said, one would hope that such a negative review in the public eye would make Double Tap reevaluate their machining issues.
They are currently making subsequent runs of the gun, and I'd love to get more input from Thefiringline members!
 
Fired 4 rounds from a 9mm model. I would never touch it again. Painful to the max, due mainly to the grip shape, inaccurate for a quick first shot, and it only holds two rounds. I would not bother. Much better off with a KelTec P32 or 3AT.
 
Jonnyc:
Yes I hear it's not friendly to the hand. I'd expect that with a derringer.
Firing discomfort aside, did you or the owner of the firearm have any other negative experiences such as misfire, malfunctions, etc?
 
I looked at them in the case at Gander Yesterday and to be brutally honest my first thought was "Why?" It is thin but the overall size isn't much different than any of the smaller .380 or 9mm compact pistols. Plus the price seemed high for what it is. Yeah, no thanks.
 
DoubleTap

Hey Biff. Thanks for taking the time to read my review and watch the videos. Maybe it wasn't clear in the review, but the first pistol was sent back and it was scrapped by DoubleTap. The second pistol that had the double ignition was a brand new pistol with a serial number about 5000 guns later than the first.

I was a supporter of the concept for a long time and stuck with Ray through all the trials and tribulations it took to finally bring the gun to market. I would still own mine if they could work out the problem with the floating firing pin and the witness marks. Sure it's a pain to shoot, but so is the Seecamp 380. I was fine with the discomfort, but not willing to try a third DoubleTap and the possibility of permanent damage to my shooting hand.

I get a messages and emails from time to time, from review readers or video viewers, with stories similar to my double ignition experience. I was lucky that I didn't need stitches. Most others have not been so lucky.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIGeMYn3Pqc

The above YouTube video shows me shooting the .45 Double Tap Defense derringer.
I also have the 9mm barrels and while shooting the 9mm I had a double discharge. The recoil was worse than my S&W 460 magnum ES (snubbie) produces.
I contacted Double Tap and sent back the gun for repair or replacement.
I got the same gun back (repaired) in a few weeks.
I tested the repaired gun with 6 different loads including the one that had produced the original double discharge. I did not encounter any problems.
I am not recoil sensitive (no glove in the .45 video) but I now use a glove with this gun for shooting both 9mm and .45.

Mark
 
Seriously, a two shot pistol should be fairly simple to make reliable. I own several High Standard derringers and an ADC .45 LC/410. I really want one of the Double Taps, but...come on guys. Get it right.

I wonder if its a case of paralysis through analysis? So many engineers had to get thier hands on it, it became over engineered and unreliable?

That huge loaded chamber indicator gap is awful. Using spring loaded ball bearings to keep the rounds in place. All seem like short cuts to just build it to tighter specs to begin with.

And, as many reports of doubling out there, it seems hard to believe no one noticed that during T&E.
 
Ljutic:
First of all, thank you much for your videos and article concerning this gun!
They were extremely well done, professionally objective, and well though out.
I had a question though, you said
I would still own [my Double Tap derringer] if they could work out the problem with the floating firing pin and the witness marks.
Click to expand...
Im not sure what you mean by this, if you have a moment, can you please explain?
Thank you for your time!
 
Morning Biff.

I always had a concern that when firing one barrel, the other firing pin would place a witness mark on the primer of the unfired round. The photo below shows a fired case in the lower barrel and an unfired round in the top barrel with a witness mark left by the upper firing pin during recoil. I understand that Derringers leave witness marks on the primer of the unfired round, but to me these witness marks seemed excessively deep and strong. Strong enough to ignite the primer.

PH6_zps8e474b98.jpg



The photo below shows 4 recovered brass cases from my last trip out with the DoubleTap. Two fired normally and two fired at the same time. To me, the primer marks look virtually identical on all four brass cases. By design the DoubleTap hammer only contacts one firing pin at a time so the other firing pin must have been driven forward by recoil alone.
b6e5127b-4917-490d-918c-1fe249358c01_zpsc844ec78.jpg


It's obvious to me that the firing pins have some measure of float and will move forward under recoil and not just when struck by the hammer. If they didn't float, we wouldn't see witness marks on the unfired primer. Before I would own another DoubleTap, I would need to see no witness marks left on the primers of unfired rounds.

Thanks for the comments about the review and I hope I provided the information you were looking for. If not, please let me know.
 
Biff,
The first two rounds I shot were the guy's reloads, and they locked-up the whole pistol. We had to use knives and screwdrivers to open it. The rounds are loaded a bit hot, but they functioned fine in the 3 other types of pistols we were using that day.
The second rounds were WalMart Feds, and they functioned fine in the Double Tap, but still hurt too much to try it a third time.
 
Ljutic:
Thanks for that thorough and informative explanation!
I appreciate very much your time, and your interest in informing our community, your input has helped me understand the Double Tap problems greatly!
That said, I wonder if using the ported barrel, heavier titanium frame, and heavy factory ammo would help minimize potential for this manufacturing flaw.
God bless and stay safe!
 
Jonnyc:
Thanks for that... So I seems that reloads are definitely out!
Interested, what kinds of ammo does Double Tap recommend for this gun?
Thanks!
 
I can answer the ammo question for you Biff. Each DoubleTap comes with a hang tag around the trigger guard that states +P ammo is not suitable for use. Any standard pressure loading in 9mm or 45 is acceptable.

Also this may be splitting hairs, which is not my intention, but I don't think the possibility of double ignition is a manufacturing fault. I think it's a flaw in the design of the pistol.

On the other thoughts regarding changing the frame weight or using ported barrels, those questions are best answered by Ray Kohout at DoubleTap. Fire off an email to their contact address and see what they say. sales@doubletapdefense.com Ray keeps close tabs on that email address and will probably answer your query within 24 hours.
 
Ljutic:
Thanks for that advice.I sent them an email quite a while ago inquiring where / how the firing pins rest. I did not get and answer.

Here is the email I just sent a few minutes ago:
Ray Kohout,
I have been waiting for the Double Tap Defense derringer to become available to the masses for quite a while now. I was excited to have recently ordered one with titanium frame with ported barrels.
However, I was a bit dismayed when I saw several Youtube videos that showed malfunctions and a double fire. Honestly, the thought of a possibility of misfire or double fire is frightening.
I have several important questions:
1- What percentage of Double Tap derringers are returned for repair?
2- What are the main problems that have required repairs for Double Tap Derringers?
3- What has Double Tap Defense has done to address these issues?
4- What can Double Tap derringer owners can do to reduce the possibility of malfunction?
Thank you.
Click to expand...

Lets see what happens.
 
Both firing pins should be spring loaded with strong enough springs to keep the pins from striking the primers.

May I suggest making the fining pins out of Beryllium Copper? Kind of like what Charter Arms did to their revolvers.

See the firing pins have to much inertia. That is the problem. The recoil trows the second pin forward to fire the other barrel.

You need a combination of lighter pin and heavier springs.

That way you might not have to increase the power of the hammer spring (and thus trigger weight.)

Deaf
 
Ricko:
Yes, for my way of thinking, perhaps one might consider only carrying one round at a time and making this into a "one shot derringer"...
Hmmm...
 
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