Double squib with 3.8 Gr 231 in 38 special

Sevens said:
You guys work on removing the stuck bullets, I'll comment on possibly why this happened.

Said above:

I'll disagree with staunch vigor. I base my experience on more than 100k plated bullets loaded and fired, and also experience with sticking three plated bullets.

I think that you built a load that was too light and I'll show you why I believe this to be true. First we'll start with Hodgdon's current load data.

Hodgdon shows us just two different loads with 158gr bullets in .38 Special using Win 231 powder. They show us a cast lead bullet load with a range of 3.1 grains to 3.8 grains max.

The other load is for a jacketed XTP, 3.8gr to 4.3 grains max. I'll also point out that their test results for the 3.8gr charge under 158gr XTP returns 661 fps velocity.

Many manufacturers of plated bullets and even some other data sources often suggest that you load these use cast bullet data, which I believe is a ludicrous mistake and I've spoken about it for years.

The fact is, a cast or swaged lead bullet moves down every barrel with far less friction than any/all plated or jacketed bullets of the same diameter. If you have ever had to tap tap tap POUND a bullet down a barrel and you've experienced the difference between a lead slug and a plated/jacketed one, you'll agree immediately. Lead bullets are easier to push down a barrel.

If you are running a load that sends a bullet out of a handgun at less than 700 fps, you are already in suspicious territory. CAS and Cowboy shooters do a lot of this, and these guys use lead slugs to do it. If you are sending plated or jacketed out of a handgun under 700 fps, you are begging to eventually stick a bullet.

Here's where you REALLY run in to a problem: revolvers all have a bleed valve. It's the flash gap between cylinder and forcing cone. With a pistol, if the cartridge case obturates and holds the pressure inside the chamber, you will get 100% of the pressure that you have (no matter how low that pressure is) to push that damn bullet out of the barrel. Unfortunately, you do NOT get that with a revolver. Because of the flash gap, that much-need pressure will take the path of least resistance to escape.

With a revolver, if you have a tight fitting bullet (in this case, plated) and you have a too light powder charge (3.8gr Win 231 is light light light) then what you should expect is a bullet that tries to get out of the barrel and hopefully does. And as it is trying, the pressure that makes it move is also escaping from the flash gap. And if a bullet makes it half way or most of the way and fails to escape, now the next one is going to have even more trouble getting out because it will have even more resistance to moving and that will direct the much-needed pressure to again escape, and escape in the path of least resistance: the flash gap.

So, why didn't the very first shot stick? Why didn't they stick in your J-frame (where you admit that it felt light?)

Quite simply, plated bullets are budget bullets. We hope and expect every bullet is EXACTLY the same but that is wishful thinking. Some are possibly ever so slightly bigger or heavier than others. And it's also more difficult for a slow moving bullet to get out of a longer barrel than it is from a shorter one. And the actual bore dimensions are different between different guns. If the Security Six has a bore that is a little tighter than the J-frame you shot this same load from before, maybe the bullets that barely exited the J-frame have even less chance to exit the Ruger.

Finally, if your powder bridged a bit or quite possibly to dropped a 3.7 or 3.6 grain charge instead of a 3.8 grain charge, you have even less pressure to work with. And the COAL that you loaded, the volume of empty space in the cartridge also has a say in how much pressure is developed in each loaded round.

Summary, if you fell asleep reading this far...
You made loads that were too light, and you used a bullet that is far more difficult to push down a barrel than a cast or swaged lead bullet. You shot them in a revolver that allows much needed pressure to simply escape out the flash gap. That's why you stuck one or more bullets.
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Sevens outstanding post!, and what I was thinking, it also made it out of the J Frames 2 inch barrel, maybe Ruger was a tighter barrel and the 6 inches was too much

I swear my scale is on, always double check (RCBS),always reset before I start and manually looked at all the cases with a flashlight.

New to 231 but have been reloading for a decade. Dont like how easy it is to double charge!

It definitely seemed very light. Even in my J frame almost like a .22

I shouldn't test my favorite revolver with a new loading. I have a Taurus 82, should have used as a test crash dummy

But then again, might have a tight bore! (Along with your other notes)
 
38 Special is the sqibiest caliber of them all. Combination of very long case with small charges of powder that can be up next to the bullet, back next to the primer, or spread out randomly inside the case. BUT the worse thing in 38 Special is loose bullet tension. The primer force can start a bullet moving before complete powder ignition causing very low pressure. Check bullet tension first. I've seen bullets come out the barrel of others 38's that fall to the ground 15 ft. from the muzzle. Your bullets should not move with thumb pressure or by pushing the bullet against your bench. If the bullet moves that's bad. Even a crimp id not enough to compensate for loose bullet tension.
 
Put the gun in the freezer over night after soaking with penetrating oil for a couple days.
Then bash it out with a properly fitted brass rod.
 
pfan said:
Not sure maybe 2 one at each end although not sure.

Was thinking of drilling through them but don't want to trust myself to do it
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Does this mean you possibly have bullets lined up from the muzzle to the forcing cone in a 6" barrel?
 
Great post Sevens. You and I have been on the same page on this topic for years. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes.

Whenever the subject of load data for plated bullets comes up, somebody will invariably post "just use lead data" or words to that effect. This thread is exactly why such advice is bad.
 
Sevens did a good job of addressing root cause.

I strongly agree,do not try a wood rod.

I really think you came up with a good idea in taking it to a gunsmith.

Generally,sooner rather than later. Anything you try that does not work makes the gunsmith's job harder.

Little hammers whacking upset the metal.The bullet peens or swages larger. gets stucker. It may be possible to even form a ring in the barrel by battering those bullets bigger.

If I was using a hammer,I'd want less speed and more momentum.

However...these are light framed guns.How you fixture or dolly them up might be real important. How will the force be absorbed by the frame?

No disrespect intended,but impact to the cylinder/crane would be bad.

Most folks don't even have a serious,well mounted vise.

I also agree with your hunch that drilling them out would likely be a disaster.

Yes,someone with the experience and tools and confidence could probably get that done.

I think,myself I'd go to the mill and make a block of aluminum to fit inside the frame and provide secure support . The breech end of the barrel would dolly on it. And,'d need a 3/8 clearance hole for the punch

A local hobby shop or Ace Hardware may stock 12 inch lengths of brass telescope tubing. Its 1/64 in wall. I'd get a piece of 11/32 I think. .343 OD and 5/16 ID. I'm sure I have a near new long series 5/16 quality drift punch in my tool box. Is hard steel,with a ground smooth diameter. That brass tube will line the barrel/sleeve over the punch.

I'd very carefully check the punch for nicks,burrs,etc. Dress the end square.

Blue painters tape might protect the finish. my trusty 32 oz Plumb ball pein might just bump them into moving.
 
Any revolversmith recommedations?

I tried to post on the smithy forum, got blocked by admin. said it was a dup

Im in the NE, but would be willing to ship
 
Check the American Pistolsmith's Guild.

Double-posts are against the forum rules because they cause duplication of effort that wastes member's time and board bandwidth and storage space. What I can do is I will move this thread to the Gunsmithing forum and leave a re-direct from the handloading forum. That way can solicit input from members who only go to one forum or the other. There are not many who don't check both, though.
 
I’m sure I’ll get roasted for this. But I’ve seen more squibs with 231 and plated bullets than all others combined. I don’t know what it is about the combination but sometimes there are ignition problems with 231 and plated bullets. Not saying that’s for certain what happened here. Could have been any number of things. But it’s something to be aware of.


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An alternative suggestion--I believe it also possible to loose pressure from a bullet not seated well to the case or doesn't headspace correctly upon chambering, I've cycled a couple cartridges where the bullet stayed stuck forward of the chamber and the case came out spilling powder. I think the comment about copper causing additional friction which enhances the probability of a squib is right on--especially if the bore is already conditioned to the use of cast bullets. I recently experienced this with the new solid-copper 22 lr bullets where the max charge cartridge I was testing was the one that squibbed, I believe it was an additive friction thing as each successive shot was fired.
 
I take squib bullets out all the time. Once you get 2 or more in the barrel, the game shanges. I have taken out up to 7 bullets out of a barrel. Just whacking it with a hammer and brass rod will just make it worse.
 
I've heard this is common from numerous pros. What is happening out there?
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Say there are 100,000,000 shooters, 1% make a mistake once a year. That's 1,000,000 squibs per year. That's a lot. But not, because it's only 1% of all users. The real numbers are different, but you get the idea.
 
I have been successful with drilling through and using a long brass wood screw, to pull them out.

Worked so far, I believe I have 2 in there still.

I assume thats what you were thinking?
 
There was an article quite a few years ago in Handloader that cautioned using anything but heavy loads for 158 grain jacketed bullets. Bullets stuck in bore was the reasoning. I've used lead bullets swaged and cast since the 70's and the only bullet I've ever stuck in a bore was a 185 grain jacketed bullet target load in .45 Auto Rim in a Model 25 S&W. Lead has more lubricity than copper.

Using a screw to pull the bullet out is the best solution. I've seen that done by my old gunsmith years ago, as well as drilling a hole in the bullet using a lathe with the gun mounted in a machinist vise. The bullet will collapse and allow it to be removed with relative ease.
 
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