So true. And some manage to do both. Several years ago at the Grand (in Vandalia where it belongs) I watched a couple of shooters approach a field. These were mountain-sized men who looked like they just came off the a mountain in the Ozarks. Bib overalls, ZZ Top beards, tattered old shell pouches, each carrying a very old canvas gun case. When they opened those cases out came a couple of sparkling Krieghoff K80s. These guys may have scrimped on everything else but knew quality was worth paying for some things.
Double Shotguns Price Justification???
- Thread starter Bearstopper
- Start date
pythagorean
Moderator
inre the justification of cost I understand the question. The main thing to consider is longevity. Most of us who use the shotgun occasionally in hunting or clay shooting could be quite happy with the Russian Baikal or Hugo doubles. They are indeed well worth the money spent for the return.
I have been to Trap Ranges where loaner doubles are available to use. I noticed that these shotguns had loosened up quite a bit but they keep using them. They were older guns made by Rottweil and other good companies and they must have been shot more times than I could really imagine. None of them were Baikals or Hugos or the other brands (Spartan-Remington) and I think it's because in time the lower priced versions wear out much faster.
If the shotgun is to be used by you and your friends and family that's one thing; but if it's expected to be used a lot the idea of getting a better machine to last is warranted.
Looks and balance play some in here but these are particular things individuals can easily disagree upon.
I have been to Trap Ranges where loaner doubles are available to use. I noticed that these shotguns had loosened up quite a bit but they keep using them. They were older guns made by Rottweil and other good companies and they must have been shot more times than I could really imagine. None of them were Baikals or Hugos or the other brands (Spartan-Remington) and I think it's because in time the lower priced versions wear out much faster.
If the shotgun is to be used by you and your friends and family that's one thing; but if it's expected to be used a lot the idea of getting a better machine to last is warranted.
Looks and balance play some in here but these are particular things individuals can easily disagree upon.
S_Constitutionist
New member
I should say that I originially shared the OP's idea. I spent about $500 on a Savage Goldwing O/U in .410. Neat little gun, and I wont call it cheap because for me, $500 is nothing to scoff at. The thing is, I rarely use the gun and I dont expect it to last 5000 rounds. Thus, it comes out once in a blue moon to shoot a round of trap or skeet to keep my 12G shooting honest. I am fine with that.
HOWEVER- I dont buy the "so it will last" argument at all. I shoot between 8 and 10k rounds through my 870 on the trap field, about about a quarter of that shooting skeet per year. My Wingmaster was used, but I fully expect that it has had at least 30-40k rounds through it between me and its previous owner. Admittedly this is a low round count compared to many, but what is there really to wear out that cannot be more easilly/cheaply replaced than on a double?
If reliability is all we are talking about here, why doesn't every one shoot a proven pump gun?
Everything else is subjective. Balance, trigger, etc can all be tweaked and its up to the discretion of the shooter whether or not it is "better". I havent forgotten about doubles, which I dont shoot - but on the few occasions I have I have done alright compared to the other newbies with doubles. It would make sense to me that doing so would make you a better doubles shooter than someone who started with a double gun.
Trap, like any other sport/hobby, is full of snobs and curmudgeons that love to turn their noses up at anyone who hasnt spent as much as they have - and brag their pants off. I have witnessed this in golf, racing, classic vehicles... you name it. I know many of you are not that way - or perhaps you see it differently than myself (im in my 20s). These individuals have nearly turned me off from the sport, but its something I enjoy and do quite well at - even if its with a "garage sale gun", as a mean old man once put it.
If you want a high priced double gun, cool. I'd like a Cynergy in the not too distant future. However, I am doing so because I want a nicer/more expensive toy. Lets call a spade a spade, and quit looking down on those that cant afford a P, K, or even a B gun.
HOWEVER- I dont buy the "so it will last" argument at all. I shoot between 8 and 10k rounds through my 870 on the trap field, about about a quarter of that shooting skeet per year. My Wingmaster was used, but I fully expect that it has had at least 30-40k rounds through it between me and its previous owner. Admittedly this is a low round count compared to many, but what is there really to wear out that cannot be more easilly/cheaply replaced than on a double?
If reliability is all we are talking about here, why doesn't every one shoot a proven pump gun?
Everything else is subjective. Balance, trigger, etc can all be tweaked and its up to the discretion of the shooter whether or not it is "better". I havent forgotten about doubles, which I dont shoot - but on the few occasions I have I have done alright compared to the other newbies with doubles. It would make sense to me that doing so would make you a better doubles shooter than someone who started with a double gun.
Trap, like any other sport/hobby, is full of snobs and curmudgeons that love to turn their noses up at anyone who hasnt spent as much as they have - and brag their pants off. I have witnessed this in golf, racing, classic vehicles... you name it. I know many of you are not that way - or perhaps you see it differently than myself (im in my 20s). These individuals have nearly turned me off from the sport, but its something I enjoy and do quite well at - even if its with a "garage sale gun", as a mean old man once put it.
If you want a high priced double gun, cool. I'd like a Cynergy in the not too distant future. However, I am doing so because I want a nicer/more expensive toy. Lets call a spade a spade, and quit looking down on those that cant afford a P, K, or even a B gun.
oneounceload
Moderator
I don't think anyone is "looking down" on anyone else who cannot afford a P, K or even a B gun as you put it. Some folks don't understand why doubles, and especially high-end ones, cost what they do. The balance, handling characteristics, handcraftsmanship, custom dimension, etc., are all things that are not readily available on mass produced guns - whether a pump or garden variety B gun. That may be subjective to some, but it is real nonetheless.
Should I ever find myself fortunate to be able to have a "bespoke" gun or two built, I most certainly will- for I have had the opportunities to handle and shoot them that belong to shooting friends of mine - they make my Browning O/U feel like the proverbial "pig on a shovel" in comparison. A pump will last every bit as long as a P or K gun without major issues - it is very simplistic in design and manufacture - which is a good thing - simple is best for that regard. But a pump, IMO, handles like a Handyman Jack -it doesn't balance well for me at all, a second shot requires moving the gun - typically off the flight line of the target, and the dimensions are all wrong - for ME.
We are fortunate enough to live somewhere where everyone has an opportunity and the choice to own what he/she can afford to spend. Owning something nice isn't about snobbery to most folks - it is about owning a quality item that will do the job with a touch of style. If more folks had the opportunities to try them, maybe they would see what some of us are talking about.
Should I ever find myself fortunate to be able to have a "bespoke" gun or two built, I most certainly will- for I have had the opportunities to handle and shoot them that belong to shooting friends of mine - they make my Browning O/U feel like the proverbial "pig on a shovel" in comparison. A pump will last every bit as long as a P or K gun without major issues - it is very simplistic in design and manufacture - which is a good thing - simple is best for that regard. But a pump, IMO, handles like a Handyman Jack -it doesn't balance well for me at all, a second shot requires moving the gun - typically off the flight line of the target, and the dimensions are all wrong - for ME.
We are fortunate enough to live somewhere where everyone has an opportunity and the choice to own what he/she can afford to spend. Owning something nice isn't about snobbery to most folks - it is about owning a quality item that will do the job with a touch of style. If more folks had the opportunities to try them, maybe they would see what some of us are talking about.
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pythagorean
Moderator
I thought the question (original OP) was why the price difference between expensive v less expensive (affordable!) doubles; not the reason why one would choose a double over a pump or auto.
BUT, if I was to choose a shotgun to fit what I want it'd definitely be the double over the auto or pump.
Yes, the price difference is huge compared to the expensive double; but once you've owned or shot a double that fits you you are sadly lost and wanton.
There simply is no cure. Except to own it.
BUT, if I was to choose a shotgun to fit what I want it'd definitely be the double over the auto or pump.
Yes, the price difference is huge compared to the expensive double; but once you've owned or shot a double that fits you you are sadly lost and wanton.
There simply is no cure. Except to own it.
oneounceload
Moderator
Very true - and every time I get to try another one for some shots, I come home and drool over them on Gunsinternational.com, and then the wife gives me the "LOOK", and I go back to the news sits........
Bearstopper
Inactive
Wow I just had a chance to read all the replies to my question and I guess my reference to arm chair experts ruffled a few of your feathers hahaha. Other than fitting a shotgun to a specific person and making it shoot point of aim, exactly which tolerances in a shotgun are critical to make it more accurate, durable etc? I realize that nice wood, engraving and embellishments add cost but what are the specific materials used in the more expensive guns that make them more durable? In my mind a double gun is a simple piece and it has been around a long time. R&D has been beat to death on these things so my guess is that they will continue to charge ridiculous prices as long as people will pay them. I can see a couple thousand, maybe 3 thousand for a really nice shotgun, but more than that is just sillyness. I don't shoot much at all and I have a Benelli and a Laurona that cover my needs perfectly, neither are custom fit and neither are expensive but they do the trick for me. The Laurona is likely a 30 plus year old gun and is working like a champ. Shotgun guys are kind of funny so I just wondered.
oneounceload
Moderator
And if you DID shoot a lot, you would realize the differences, especially for competition where the number of shots is in the hundreds of thousands, if not higher.......
3,000 in today's money gets you started with a quality entry-level O/U that will last long enough to pass down to your kids after a high-round count from you.
R & D not quite dead
The 2010 ISSF Ladies Skeet World Skeet Championship, in Munich, was won by Kim Rhode (USA) shooting a Perazzi MX2000/8. (This was not the same gun, a Perazzi MX12, that she used to win the 2009 ISSF World Cup in San Marino.) D. Bartekova (SVK) came in third, also shooting a MX2000/8. The lady who came in second wasn't shooting a Perazzi. Do you suppose she was thinking that R & D has been beat to death, as you suggested, or is she thinking of getting a P-gun MX2000/8?
Be assured, the other comp guns makers of aren't letting any grass grow between their toes in their R & D departments. They'd love to come up with something new to dethrone the P-guns. As race car technology finds its way to the street, new comp gun technology eventually finds its way to the $3000 guns.
If you checked my link to Perazzi successes and domination in international competition you'd realize that competition shooting equipment has not had its R & D beat to death. As shooters improve and evolve, their equipment must evolve too, or wind up on the bone pile.Bearstopper said:
The 2010 ISSF Ladies Skeet World Skeet Championship, in Munich, was won by Kim Rhode (USA) shooting a Perazzi MX2000/8. (This was not the same gun, a Perazzi MX12, that she used to win the 2009 ISSF World Cup in San Marino.) D. Bartekova (SVK) came in third, also shooting a MX2000/8. The lady who came in second wasn't shooting a Perazzi. Do you suppose she was thinking that R & D has been beat to death, as you suggested, or is she thinking of getting a P-gun MX2000/8?
Be assured, the other comp guns makers of aren't letting any grass grow between their toes in their R & D departments. They'd love to come up with something new to dethrone the P-guns. As race car technology finds its way to the street, new comp gun technology eventually finds its way to the $3000 guns.
pythagorean
Moderator
I think it was Jeff Cooper who said something to the effect that out of all longarms the shotgun can be the most expensive when referring to the double;
yet it doesn't necessarily pattern or shoot any better than an inexpensive single shot for beans.
He was referring to the way the shotgun is a "moving target" longarm and had to have "extras" rifles can never achieve.
The main problem for me when using the pump or auto is the excess length of the arm due to the action. A break open shotgun, single or double barrel, is preferred. The problem with the single is the one shot. Most times two is all one really has time for but the two can be shot without much time wasted (or the second target getting away). A third target can be had by the auto or pump but by the time a person has fired twice the moving third target is most likely way out there and away!
The double barrel is more (or most) "dynamic" to shoulder, follow, shoot than any other shotgun action.
When you get a double (O/U or S/S) you have to be careful what you spend your extra cash on. The extra cash goes toward all the extra work, the trigger locks, the two barrels working together, the mono block or the humps or lockup. As simple as the break open double is in use it takes a mountain of engineering and work to KEEP IT SIMPLE!
yet it doesn't necessarily pattern or shoot any better than an inexpensive single shot for beans.
He was referring to the way the shotgun is a "moving target" longarm and had to have "extras" rifles can never achieve.
The main problem for me when using the pump or auto is the excess length of the arm due to the action. A break open shotgun, single or double barrel, is preferred. The problem with the single is the one shot. Most times two is all one really has time for but the two can be shot without much time wasted (or the second target getting away). A third target can be had by the auto or pump but by the time a person has fired twice the moving third target is most likely way out there and away!
The double barrel is more (or most) "dynamic" to shoulder, follow, shoot than any other shotgun action.
When you get a double (O/U or S/S) you have to be careful what you spend your extra cash on. The extra cash goes toward all the extra work, the trigger locks, the two barrels working together, the mono block or the humps or lockup. As simple as the break open double is in use it takes a mountain of engineering and work to KEEP IT SIMPLE!
"so my guess is that they will continue to charge ridiculous prices as long as people will pay them. I can see a couple thousand, maybe 3 thousand for a really nice shotgun, but more than that is just sillyness."
Did you come here to get an answer to a question? I don't think so because your mind is made up on the subject and you're not listening to the answers.
"which tolerances in a shotgun are critical to make it more accurate, durable etc?"
Durable? Talking about SxS and O/U shotguns, it's the hinge area that weakens, stretches, and fails. (That's if the trigger doesn't break first or some other part like breaking firing pins one after the other.) Better designs cost money. Better steel costs money. And better steel requires better tools to work it.
Going back about 5 years before WWII, my father bought an Essex SxS 16 ga made by Crescent for a big hardware store in St. Louis. By the time he left for the Pacific, the hinge was loose (shot loose, off the face, by whatever name) and the gun was junked by his brother. It worked fine for 5 years of upland/mountain hunting in the Blue Ridge, but when it started falling apart it couldn't be fixed at a reasonable price.
In the early '60s I got a brand new Fox Model B 12 ga. SxS. It was just plain clunky and heavy and unweildy and it kicked, and the M/F chokes were more like F/EF and just shredded quail and rabbits. I was a disappointed 13-year-old. My uncle sold it to a guy at work and I learned another lesson. I should have bought a 20 ga. Model 12 like my father's.
You keep believing what you like, but you'd be wise to listen to the voices of experience.
Even my father, with his love of the Win Model 12, could appreciate a nice double when he was in his 80s. They feel and handle differently. He paid $2400 for this 28 ga. Guerini Woodlander 6 or 7 years ago. It's not even handmade, it's machine made.
Did you come here to get an answer to a question? I don't think so because your mind is made up on the subject and you're not listening to the answers.
"which tolerances in a shotgun are critical to make it more accurate, durable etc?"
Durable? Talking about SxS and O/U shotguns, it's the hinge area that weakens, stretches, and fails. (That's if the trigger doesn't break first or some other part like breaking firing pins one after the other.) Better designs cost money. Better steel costs money. And better steel requires better tools to work it.
Going back about 5 years before WWII, my father bought an Essex SxS 16 ga made by Crescent for a big hardware store in St. Louis. By the time he left for the Pacific, the hinge was loose (shot loose, off the face, by whatever name) and the gun was junked by his brother. It worked fine for 5 years of upland/mountain hunting in the Blue Ridge, but when it started falling apart it couldn't be fixed at a reasonable price.
In the early '60s I got a brand new Fox Model B 12 ga. SxS. It was just plain clunky and heavy and unweildy and it kicked, and the M/F chokes were more like F/EF and just shredded quail and rabbits. I was a disappointed 13-year-old. My uncle sold it to a guy at work and I learned another lesson. I should have bought a 20 ga. Model 12 like my father's.
You keep believing what you like, but you'd be wise to listen to the voices of experience.
Even my father, with his love of the Win Model 12, could appreciate a nice double when he was in his 80s. They feel and handle differently. He paid $2400 for this 28 ga. Guerini Woodlander 6 or 7 years ago. It's not even handmade, it's machine made.
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No point in spending time on a closed mind. For those who don't understand and are unwilling or unable to grasp concepts beyond their experience or intelligence it's generally a waste of time trying to explain it. For them no explanation is sufficient.
For those who do understand no explanation is necessary.
oneounceload
Moderator
JohnBT - nice CG! How does your dad like it? (Amazing what CNC can do these days)
Bearstopper
Inactive
hahahaha wow you guys are touchy.
A very good reason for buying a Beretta or Browning vs the CZ, etc is resale value. They will retain a higher percentage of their new price than many other guns.
Beretta and Browning both have excellent reputations, and the used market recognizes it and it willing to pay more for it.
Beretta and Browning both have excellent reputations, and the used market recognizes it and it willing to pay more for it.
"nice CG! How does your dad like it?"
Thanks, he likes it just fine, but he gave it to me - used of course - for my birthday before he and my mother had to move to assisted living/nursing.
Know what I got for my birthday the following year? He gave me $30 and told me to buy a new billfold. Mine was literally falling apart at the seams.
It's a great shotgun. It has 28" barrels and weighs 6# 2 ounces. Here's an overhead view next to a 12 ga. 870 Express, also with a 28" barrel.
Thanks, he likes it just fine, but he gave it to me - used of course
- for my birthday before he and my mother had to move to assisted living/nursing. Know what I got for my birthday the following year? He gave me $30 and told me to buy a new billfold. Mine was literally falling apart at the seams.
It's a great shotgun. It has 28" barrels and weighs 6# 2 ounces. Here's an overhead view next to a 12 ga. 870 Express, also with a 28" barrel.