Double Shotguns Price Justification???

B

Bearstopper

Inactive
What makes a Beretta worth thousands compared to a CZ only hundreds? I understand that Beretta has a long standing reputation for great shotguns, but when it comes to getting the job done they both work fine. I know all the armchair experts are going to say a bunch of silly crap such as balance/feel, reliability etc but 9 times out of ten those things are hogwash as both are reliable and balance/feel is subjective. I don't own either but it is my belief that most hardcore clay and bird hunters let peer pressure keep them from enjoying or even owning a lower priced alternative to a Browning or Beretta etc. I guess the question is, are the Beretta's more reliable, durable, accurate, etc or is it just Levi vs Lee?
 
From your post it seems you are set in your opinion so why ask? The only example I can give you is go to some large clay target events. While you are there see if you can find a CZ. If the CZs were as good you would see them being used.
 
What makes a Beretta worth thousands compared to a CZ only hundreds? I understand that Beretta has a long standing reputation for great shotguns, but when it comes to getting the job done they both work fine. I know all the armchair experts are going to say a bunch of silly crap such as balance/feel, reliability etc but 9 times out of ten those things are hogwash as both are reliable and balance/feel is subjective. I don't own either but it is my belief that most hardcore clay and bird hunters let peer pressure keep them from enjoying or even owning a lower priced alternative to a Browning or Beretta etc. I guess the question is, are the Beretta's more reliable, durable, accurate, etc or is it just Levi vs Lee?
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Sounds like you have made up your mind based on no experience or facts. Hard to answer your question like that, but I'll take a stab at it.

Beretta and Browning are the lower quality level for someone looking for a decent O/U that will last and function for a long time. Weight, balance, fit of the gun, quality of the machining, barrels properly fitted and regulated, etc. are all part of the answer. As the prices start to climb, the quality gets even better, as does the reliability, fit balance and handling - something absolutely critical to someone who shoots competitively or wants to do his/her best in the fields for grouse/quail/pheasant, etc.

Once you get above approximately $15,000, most differences in price come from cosmetics like engraving and root burl walnut. There are some others that are VERY expensive that are handmade, one in particular, out of titanium that drive costs up. The more hand-fitting required, the higher the cost. Those guns can cost upwards of $220,000 and might take 3-4 years before you get it.

In between that high-end Fabbri and the basic Browning/Beretta are guns from the likes of Cesar Guerini, Blaser, Perazzi, Kreighoff, Kolar, among many others - most of which are designed for a specific task like Bunker trap, box pigeons, Sporting Clays, etc. The nice things about guns in this range is that most of the companies will make custom touches and tweaks for you.

In any event, these guns are designed to go hundreds of thousands, if not millions of rounds, not just hundreds of rounds like lesser quality guns.

If all you do is shoot a little dove each year, a CZ MAY work just fine for your needs. If you are into shooting clays several times a week, the gun wasn't designed for that usage and won't last.

YMMV
 
oneounce hit the nail on the head. I shoot more clay targets in a week than most hunters shoot in a year. beretta's for example can run from a thousand bucks up to 100k for their top of the line.
 
I know all the armchair experts are going to say a bunch of silly crap such as balance/feel, reliability etc but 9 times out of ten those things are hogwash as both are reliable and balance/feel is subjective. I don't own either but it is my belief that most hardcore clay and bird hunters let peer pressure keep them from enjoying or even owning a lower priced alternative to a Browning or Beretta etc.
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Do you want advice or are you just talking to yourself out loud?

CZs are pretty good guns for what they cost, but they are nowhere near as well made a Beretta or Browning. If you shoot thousands of rounds a year, a Beretta will outlast 3 CZs. Balance and feel may be subjective, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Try looking at a CZ and a Beretta at the same time. If the difference in fit and finish isn't apparent, you need to develop a more refined sense of quality.
 
I shoot more clay targets in a week than most hunters shoot in a year.
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I really hadn't thought of that,,,
My buddy goes out to shoot clays once every other weekend,,,
He will shot 200 rounds of 12 gauge on each day,,,
That's 200 times 26 = 5200 rounds a year.

That's a lot of ammo going through a shotgun.

I truly have no idea of how many rounds a gun can take before it shoots loose,,,
But are you guys saying that a person needs to spend several thousand to get a gun that will take that?

Believe me, I'm not arguing,,,
I'm asking.

.
 
I really hadn't thought of that,,,
My buddy goes out to shoot clays once every other weekend,,,
He will shot 200 rounds of 12 gauge on each day,,,
That's 200 times 26 = 5200 rounds a year.

That's a lot of ammo going through a shotgun.

I truly have no idea of how many rounds a gun can take before it shoots loose,,,
But are you guys saying that a person needs to spend several thousand to get a gun that will take that?

Believe me, I'm not arguing,,,
I'm asking.
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I'm a casual shooter and I shoot double that in 12 gauge alone, plus an amount equal to your friend in 20 and 28 gauge.

If you want to have a gun that isn't going to shoot loose in a few years, then yes, something on the order of a "B" gun would be the minimum recommendation. Serious competition shooters who shoot 500 rounds a DAY, EVERY day (think Kim Rhodes of Olympic Gold fame), use guns built to even better tolerances - her choice is a Perazzi (as are most of the Olympic shooters from every country). Kreighoff, upper end Beretta (DT-10), among others in the $8-15,000 range are used to take the punishment that 500,000-1,000,000 rounds will deliver.

For someone who is likely to shoot a few flats per year, lesser guns may stay together and allow success.

The reason those guns cost what they do is the tolerances and features that are put into them - labor costs and good labor costs more....
 
5,000 to 10,000 shells a year thru a "target gun" is pretty average usage.

Its my opinion that both Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for the money - and at around $ 3,000 - you'll have a number of options on a gun that will easily give you performance of 10,000 shells a year for 20 - 30 yrs with little, if any, problems. A gun like the Browning Citori, XS Skeet, with an adjustable comb - is a gun with a lot of adjustability and the durability and fit and finish that you want in an affordable and workhorse gun.

Spend several thousand - no ... $3K will take care of it, in my opinion.

Browning and Beretta have set the bar on reasonably affordable O/U's - today from $ 1,500 - $ 5,000 probably with each company making 60 or so models.

The OP has already made his mind up ...so no reason to argue with him / and in the less expensive guns CZ, TriStar, etc ... maybe they will hold up for a few thousand shells a year - maybe they won't. But you have to ask yourself - a plain jane, Browning Citori, 12ga, 28" barrels ( like the Lightning model today ) sold for about $ 700 in 1988. Today - on the used market - that same gun is valued at around $ 1,250 in good shape. A new Citori Lightning today is selling for around $ 1,600 - $1,750. Was that Citori a good buy in 1988 ?? Are the Browning Citori's of today -as good - yes, in my opinion / and as good a buy in my opinion.

There are less expensive guns - giving pretty good service out there - SKB, Ruger, etc ....but even with some of them, its a little hit and miss. On guns like Baikal, TriStar, CZ, Huglu, etc .... personally, I think its a crap-shoot ...on whether you'll get the 1 of 3 out of 10 that will be ok ...and then there is the other 7 ....

We all have budgets for guns, cars, tools etc .... but the key to me, is do you want to buy a gun that will probably last you 30+ yrs and be passed down in the family ....or get into a crap-shoot. Not to mention - there is the question of " Fit " - and will a gun made by CZ, TriStar, etc fit you ....or most of the Citori's for that matter ( at least half of the Browning's don't come close to fitting me / and have little if any adjustment ) compared to the Citori XS Skeet with the adj comb... so to me, $ 3 K for a very good, not fancy, shotgun is a fair deal ...
 
Most experienced shooter select their guns based on performance, and couldn't care less what others are shooting. The non-, or infrequent shooter can appreciate the subtile differences between shotguns no more that the highway driver can evaluate two very similar types of race car tires.

I agree with oneounceload, entry level Berettas and Brownings, the B-guns, are the lower quality level of "decent" double guns. Some are even used by elite level comp shooters. Of course, both companies make higher grade guns.

Although the guns are now foreign made, American shooters are well aware of the contributions made by John M. Browning. The gun company bearing his name still garners his prestige.

Beretta has learned a thing or two during their nearly 500-years of making firearms. Their success has allowed them to acquire some of their Italian competitors like Benelli, Franchi and Uberti. Also, Beretta has SAKO, Stoeger, Tikka, Burris Optical, and may still have a part of Browning.

There are some small shops who specialize in high-end and comp shotguns. Of these, Perazzi has had some successful with their comp guns. Actually, they have been very successful, click this link and then start scrolling down.
I really hadn't thought of that,,,
My buddy goes out to shoot clays once every other weekend,,,
He will shot 200 rounds of 12 gauge on each day,,,
That's 200 times 26 = 5200 rounds a year.

That's a lot of ammo going through a shotgun.
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I don't want to burst your balloon, but he'd be considered a "casual" shooter at many clubs. For a "serious" shooter it's 400-600 targets every match weekend (Fri, Sat, Sun) and some practice during the week. 30,000+ targets per year is pretty common.
 
,,,but he'd be considered a "casual" shooter at many clubs.
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That's kinda what I was implying,,,
I just didn't state it outright.

I was thinking about my granddad's deer rifle,,,
He bought a Remington 30-06 back in the mid 1950's,,,
I remember him taking me out to a field to sight in the scope.

He shot a full box of ammunition that day,,,
I remember because he gave me the empty shells and the box.

In the next years I doubt that it had 200 rounds total through it,,,
And he deer hunted each and every year until he died in 1985.

Two or three shots to see if the scope was still zeroed,,,
One or two to get his deer and then the gun was in the cabinet until next year.

I can't imagine wearing a rifle out,,,
Except for maybe a 22 semi-automatic,,,
But if people shoot 10,000 shells a year in a shotgun,,,
I guess it better be well made to last for 10, 15, or even 20 years.

Boggles my mind,,,

.
 
When I lived in the Reno area, I got to meet a great ATA shooter - Dan Orlich. His gun of choice was/is a Ljutic - a single barrel and a separate double barrel for doubles - each is serial number ONE - he'd been shooting them since whenever Ljutic opened his shop (IIRC, early 60's). His single has over one million targets and still goes strong today.

There's a story circulating how the AMU at Ft. Benning had over 1,000,000 rounds through a Perazzi and Perazzi wanted it for their museum and would give the team a new one - their response was (supposedly), "No thanks, this one still works fine"

There are many reports of some guns going that magical 1,000,000 target mark - that is not to say that a spring here and there, or maybe a firing pin needed replacing - but the barrels, trigger group, action, etc., are all still going strong - THAT'S what you get when pay the money for one of those types of guns. The question then becomes - do YOU need that level of excellence for your use?
In the OP's situation, I doubt it, in yours, it might be a maybe as a goal.

The point is this - I have the sig line I do because I truly believe it -and truly believing it doesn't mean everything has to cost what a house does - but that you are better off buying quality once, than buying junk over and over, ESPECIALLY if this is to become a hobby, serious hobby, compulsion, addiction, or a new career......

Even if you can't afford that P or K gun at this moment, when you start to look around, you can find used ones priced what new lower level guns are costing. Whats the best deal? That's for YOU to decide for your own situation
 
Double's are worth whatever people are willing to pay for them. If people are willing to pay 3k for the gun you can pretty well assume that they are worth that much for good reason.

I really think someone should work up a chart showing how much you should spend on a gun vs the amount of shells you plan on shooting and their cost. Like if you want to shoot 20,000 shells a year plan to spend 1/4 that ($5,000) for a gun. If you want to shoot 5,000 a year you should spent at least $1,250 on a gun
 
I really think someone should work up a chart showing how much you should spend on a gun vs the amount of shells you plan on shooting and their cost. Like if you want to shoot 20,000 shells a year plan to spend 1/4 that ($5,000) for a gun. If you want to shoot 5,000 a year you should spent at least $1,250 on a gun
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That's an interesting idea - but you would need to expand it to include how many YEARS you would be doing it so you might be able to make some sort of cost per shot ratio versus a cheap gun that you need to constantly replace while the better one was still going strong.

Neat idea though
 
see where spending 1/2 my day staring at spreadsheets gets me :D

I would compose the list myself however to be completely honest I have no where near the expertise in shotgunning required to even put the title on the list
 
Aarondhgraham,

for what its worth - even though I fall into the 10,000 shells a year category / when I was shooting sporting clays seriously a few years ago - I was shooting closer to 25,000 shells a year at least. Its expensive -- but its a major hobby too .....( and I have a tolerant wife ..) ...

But when I was a kid - and grandpa took me hunting a lot ....and we hunted at least once a week during duck, pheasant and grouse season ...and in big game season for Elk, Deer and Black Bear .... and in a big year --- I doubt Grandpa or I shot more than 100 shotshells / and maybe 20 rifle cartridges ....and we ate lots of birds ....and lots of venison, elk meat and bear meat ....(and so did the rest of the family )... He would cringe - if he were alive - and could see all the ammo I shoot and reload for 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410's - let alone for 9mm, .38 spl, .357 mag,
.40 S&W, . 45 acp and .44 mag .... but its a different time than it was in the 1950's when I was a kid ... ( and he is the one that taught me to shoot, hunt and reload - when I was about 9 or 10 yrs old ) ....
 
Part of the issue Teirst ....

is even if you only shoot 1,000 shells a year now ....as your kids get older, or when they move out, when the grandkids come along ... you might go thru periods where you'll shoot 10,000 shells a year or 25,000 shells a year ...

so do you buy a gun that might meet your needs now ....or buy a gun for what you intend to do with it 20 yrs from now...??

As I've gotten a little older ( eyes get bad, I'm slowing down a little, have very little interest in competition anymore ) .... so I'm shooting less today than I did 10 yrs ago ...but I'm still in the 10,000 shells a year category ...

and I want to pass some of my shotguns down to the boys --- and/or the grandkids.

The evaluation isn't just price either.... There is a long thread on this forum where sks has had a number of issues with a Stoeger M2000 ....and sent it back to the mfg ...and they can't seem to get it so it will cycle shells properly. He probably paid $1,000 for that gun ....and you would have to ask him if it was a waste or not ...but I know he's really frustrated with it.
(His thread is about 2/3 of the way down on page 2 of this forum ) ...
 
I wore out a remington 1100 on trap and skeet, didnt take very long either. Like 2 years, went to a Italian single, vent rib etc.

Dad shot a lot, had many trophys for shooting, his gun of choice was a winchester 1896 :) heavy but it held up, he shot for 20 years and used that gun, took it hunting too. The thing still shoots altho I got the hammer bite when I shot it last.
 
pride

One thing that has not been mentioned about the more costly guns - though it was alluded to in the remarks about quality - is pride of ownership. There is a difficult to define yet real feeling about ownership of a very fine firearm. I held and fondled CZs - nice. I have done the same to Holland and Holland shotguns. The differences are palpable. Unfortunately, I can't afford the H&H.

these guns are designed to go hundreds of thousands, if not millions of rounds, not just hundreds of rounds like lesser quality guns.
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Exactly. I have just started in the Trap addiction - I'm at the 5200+ shells a year stage. I was - was - using my Weatherby (SKB) O/U. It's a nice shooter, a pretty gun. Fits me. I shoot it well. BUT it became obvious quickly that it was not going to hold up even to my casual shooting.
Pete
 
A 100 bird round of sporting clays at my club costs $35. The four boxes of shells cost about $24. Total cost per round is $59. If I average just I round per week I've spent over $3,000 annually or about the price of a Beretta or Browning. In three years I've spent the price of a Perazzi. That money is gone but the gun whether a Beretta or Perazzi still retains a signficant value.

If I'm going to spend that much time and money shooting the targets why wouldn't I have the best gun I could?
 
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