Double-Action Dilemma

D

Der Grosse

New member
I went to the range this weekend to practice with my H&K P7M8 and to try to find a less expensive and different second gun (for the sake of variety). I wanted to try out a DA/SA and the clerk recommended the SIG 239 as a reliable and accurate candidate.

It had been a long time since I had fired anything other than my P7M8. I am relatively new to shooting and had only fired any other guns (Colt .22 target pistols, S&W .38 revolvers, Ruger 9mms) during my 6 week training course on firearms last year and a couple of times while I was deciding what gun to buy (H&K USP 9 and USPc 9), also last year.

Going from my P7M8 to the Sig was a nightmare. The DA pull on the SIG was heavy enough to give me a sense of security, but so incredibly long that it forced me to change my trigger finger position mid-pull. The SA was way too light, the break was imperceptible and it didn't help that the shells went flying in every direction (including on top of my head). Even though I was pretty accurate with it, there is no way I could ever be comfortable with such a trigger.

Which leads me to my dilemma. I have steered away from DAO guns because of my fear of accidental/negligent discharges.
However, it is now clear to me that DA/SA is out of the question since I am so used to my P7M8 (and since it will remain my primary gun). So what are my DAO alternatives?

1. I have dry-fired a Kahr which is supposed to be a 7lbs. pull and thought it to be a little light - would it feel different if it was actually loaded?

2. I have never fired a Glock - how much does it cost to get a "NY" trigger system installed? (I am firing a friend's 17 and 19 tomorrow.)

3. Do the new Steyrs have adjustable trigger pulls?

4. Are there better DA/SA systems?

5. Should I just bite the bullet and get another P7M8?
 
It takes a true SA design pistol, like a 1911, to approach what is the SA trigger of a P7. I find that I am much faster and more accurate with my P7 than I am with my Kahr. BTW, the dry-fire pull you felt is just the same when loaded.

You're right though, about the DA/SA transition. Some pistols are worse than others, and some folks have more trouble with it. I would guess that a Glock, or Steyr would have a trigger that is easier for you to adapt to. You won't know for sure until you are able to shoot them side-by-side.
 
just like with any gun if you practice a lot with a DA/SA pistol after a while you'll get used to it and start shooting it better. my first pistol was a Beretta 92FS which is DA/SA. i was never really good at shooting it in DA since i was just a beginner then. after a while i got into glocks and didn't shoot it or any DA/SA gun much. after a while of nearly only shooting glocks i took my beretta to the range again. at this point i was a much better shooter and even though i didn't practic with the beretta in a while i shot it better. you said you're reletively new to shooting so if you practice more with all different types of guns you could probably master any type of firing system if you put enough time into it. a lot of people say sigs have very good triggers for DA/SA guns, i happen to like my Beretta's trigger pull better than that of my Sig 225.

Glocks aren't DA/SA or even DAO, they're striker fired pistols and aren't really like anything else. an NY trigger spring will give you around an 8lb. pull that feels more like a revolver instead of the normal trigger pull that has a lot of takeup and then the break. all my Glocks have stock triggers and i wouldn't want to change them. i shoot them very accurately the way they are and i don't see why anyone would want the trigger any heavier.

i've only dry fired Kahrs and they have very nice triggers. however the one thing i didn't like about Kahr's triggers is the reset is far too long. on a glock after you fire the first round you only have to let the trigger go forward about 1/8" and then u can fire again, this allows you to shoot faster and more accurately. on a Kahr after each shot you have to let the trigger go forward basically all the way before you can fire again. i can imagine this really effecting my speed and accuracy if i wanted to shoot one quickly.
 
While SIGs are outstanding weapons, I've only handled one that had a good DA/SA transition (and I've handled many and owned several). In the one example that I liked, a local gunsmith worked magic with a factory nickel-plated P-220. Wonderful gun.

If you have to go the DA/SA route, you'll probably still have to get the gun "gunsmithed" for best results. (I've had this done with two CZs (CZ-75B and CZ-85Combat) and they've got a wonderful DA/SA transition. And its made better because you can start from the half-cocked position, which lowers trigger pull even farther.
 
I have both the NY1 (olive) and NY2 (orange) springs to try. I haven't installed them yet. They cost a whopping $4.00 each.

Go to http://www.glockmeister.com and look for the free technical info link. There's a section with illustrations of how an NY spring fits in. I'll either do it myself or get a local Glock armorer to do it one afternoon. I can't imagine it taking more than a half hour or costing more than $20 (even if the guy hates doing it).
 
Der Grosse:

Yup, the old DA to SA transition truly sucks. I have a Sig P239. As DA/SA guns go, I'd say the Sig has one of the better DA and SA triggers. But it takes quite a bit of practice to master the DA/SA transition. The SA trigger isn't too light -- it's around 5 lbs or so. Actually pretty nice. If you want to try a gun with a bad DA trigger, try my USP Compact .45 -- the DA trigger on this thing takes two men and a boy to pull.

As to DAO or striker-fired, why do you think these guns are less safe than a DA/SA? After all, once you've gripped the P7 firmly, you have a very light trigger too...

Glocks come standard with about a 5 - 6 lb trigger pull. You can up that to 8 or 10+ lbs, depending upon which spring you choose.

I have several Kahrs. I don't think the trigger is light. It won't feel different if the gun is loaded. The trigger reset is longer than that of a Glock, but it is much smoother. Glocks have gritty, creepy, nasty triggers that sproing when the striker finally releases. Ugh, I hate Glock triggers (I have two Glocks, so don't start the flames...).

Would you be more comfortable using a gun with an external safety, like an M1911?

M1911
 
After years of owning a Taurus PT100, HK USP45f, and a brief stint with a Glock 27, my PERSONAL opinion is that my Kahr P9 has the sweetest, smoothest trigger I've ever pulled. My wife's MK9 is almost as nice!

After a recent trip to the firing range, I too have found that I no longer like the traditional DA/SA. The Glock is still in the running for "next pistol", as is the Walther P99QA.

Sig doesn't make any DAO's? I kinda thought with their big LEO presence, that they might. You know how the LEO "decision makers" love those DAO autos... :rolleyes:
 
Since the P7 seems to be so engrained in you maybe you should get another P7.

But if you want a different pistol, for whatever reason, the Glock, single action 1911s/Browning High Power, and the CZ 75 or HK USPs capable of cock and lock should be easier to transition to.
 
Get another P7 or you can get one of the new USP with the Law Enforcement Modification triggers. DAO, 4.5 lb trigger.
 
Scooter, don't think the LEM trigger is available yet for non-leos. And I thought it was more like 7 lbs.

M1911
 
Last night I met my friend at the range and tried out his Glock 17, Glock 21 and Beretta 96 FS along side my P7M8. It was the first time that I had shot a Glock or Beretta. We shot about 400 rounds through the guns, using a combination of normal loads and hot loads.

The Glocks felt good in my hands and the triggers were pretty smooth. Both these findings surprised me after having read all the anti-Glock posts on this forum. I was also pleasantly surprised at how low the recoil was for both Glocks.

However, both the 17 and 21 threw brass all over the place, including my head (very annoying). All my groups with the Glock 17 were tight, but off to the lower left. Maybe it was just the sights on the 17, because I was painting the black circle with the 21. There is also no way that I could carry a round in the chamber with either gun. Way too light a trigger pull for someone like me.

I loved the Beretta. It felt great in my hand and unlike the SIG 239, the DA was smooth and controllable. I was almost as accurate with it as with my P7. Brass ejected to the same place every time. The recoil was very mild.

My experience has confirmed my opinion that the P7 was the right carry gun for me and that the Beretta will make a great home/office gun. I intend to purchase one soon.
 
not a bad choice at all, the berretta is a fine gun. i have a 96 that has truely surprised me...first accurate .40 i've shot, much more than the department's p229. i find the transition from DA to SA very smooth. this gun will give you some experience with a gun with an external safety as well as forward weigh balance and longer sight radius.

if you are so inclined, you might want to try a EAA witness/cz75. the one i owned had a very smooth DA/SA and has the low bore line that you are used to with the p7...it would also give you the option of trying cocked-n-locked carry.

i love my p7 too, got both the psp and m8, but its nice to develope skills with other guns too. when you're feel cocky about your skill level, pick up a python and shoot your normal course of fire DA only.
 
I am in a distinct minority, but I prefer the DAO versions of the Beretta (92D and 96D) to the DA/SA versions of the same guns. If you compare the DAO trigger pulls to the DA/SA versions of the same gun, you will find that the DA pull is smoother and lighter than the DA pull on the DA/SA version. The DAO version eliminates the transition issue--every shot is the same. I also prefer the absence of a safety/decocker. In terms of accuracy, the trigger pull is so smooth that it is not difficult to maintain sight alignment while taking long shots, although the length of pull and overall weight is longer and heavier than some of the other pistols discussed. Beyond 25 yards I actually shoot the Berettas better than my Glock model 22. At 50-60 yards the difference is substantial, at least for me.

Of course, you may have to scout around to find one to try. They also tend to be cheaper because nobody wants them.
 
you might want to try para ordnance LDA's (light double action). they 1911 style double stack guns available in a variety of sizes. for carry, the p12.45 is pretty nice -- 13 rounds of .45 in a very compact frame. the triggers on all LDA's are unbelievable.

if you are interested in kahr's, you might want to make sure you get an elite trigger. the p9's all have elite triggers. the steel kahrs with elite triggers are labelled elite 98. the main difference is in length of pull rather than the weight.
 
the DA trigger pull on the DAO berretta is smoother than the DA/SA models. thats why it is a common ;) tuner's modification to change out their mainsprings (?). if you don't mind voiding the factory warranty :confused: for a even better trigger pull :D you can install a mainspring from a 1911 :eek:
 
I have seen posts about changing out mainsprings in Berettas, but I don't agree with doing those kinds of modifications to a personal defense carry gun. My philosophy is that the first shot is the most important, and with all the high quality firearms out there, it would be better to find one that works best for the first shot right out of the box in whatever mode that may be. I have noticed in some DA/SA carriers a desire to tweak the part they don't like, i.e., the first shot, so that they then can get to the part they do like, i.e., subsequent shots. That just seems backwards, unless they are constrained by outside factors such as department regulations.
 
There are some USP w/ LEM available to the public. I think SPC still has one, and I think one other place also has them. The LEM is similiar to the Para LDA. There are two springs available to adjust the trigger, 4.5 and I think 8 lbs.
 
wyo - the changing of the mainspring on a DA/SA 92/96 to one from a DAO 92/96 is a factory modification and performed by amourers...it does not void the factory warranty and remains "factory". it is only the change to the 1911 mainspring, as part of a full tune, that is not condoned.
 
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