Don't you just hate "which gun" threads

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chaim

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OK, a few months ago I had decided to finally get a Glock and that my first Glock was going to be a G27. Well, I live in MD where I can't carry so I only carry occasionally (when in a state where I can use my UT non-res permit) and usually only for a few hours. Last March I spent several days straight in VA and started to rethink my recent (as in about 10 year) obsession with smaller CCW pistols, and when I was back for nearly a week last month I think my small CCW obsession is over. I found it wasn't much harder to conceal (even IWB/tucked) with my SIG P250 Compact in .45 (with 9+1 capacity in .45) than with my SIG P290 (6+1 capacity of 9mm flush, 8+1 with the extended mag).

I like to carry IWB. With a decent cant on the holster the length of the gun doesn't matter that much since the length of the gun is inside your pants, nor does its height since the cant helps conceal a taller gun. So, really the width of the gun is the main issue for concealment the way I prefer to conceal (though all else being equal, a shorter butt and length is better). Of course, weight matters too, but with the right belt/holster I sometimes carry a S&W 625 and for all day I think 28-30oz may be a good limit. I have also been thinking for a few years now that the highest capacity within my other limitations the better. So, I'm done thinking about the G27, and I'm thinking my next carry gun will be either a smaller service pistol or a bigger "compact". I don't want it to be wider than my SIG P250 (because a little narrower would be nice), most P250 Compacts are 1.3" (the medium grip module) but I think the .45 comes with the "large" grip module (I'm not 100% sure the measurements, but I think it is 1.4")

So, here are the criteria I want:
  • No wider than my P250C and preferably narrower (no wider than the 1.3-1.4" range, and preferably 1.1-1.25")
  • As light as possible for the size so polymer or possibly alloy, but probably not steel
  • Still, enough weight for the caliber so it is comfortable at the range for plenty of practice and absorbs recoil for quick follow up shots
  • Combining the previous two, for most guns in 9mm, .357SIG or .40S&W I'm thinking 24-28oz, though for some guns I'd go an ounce or two either direction.
  • I haven't had a functioning .40S&W for a while and I want one so preferably .40S&W. Though, the .357SIG has been intriguing me for a while now and for the right gun I'd go 9mm (specifically for the CZ PCR I've wanted for well over a decade now). So, it will be either a CZ PCR or it will be a .40 or .357 depending upon what is in stock and which mood hits me when I happen to put my money down (and, preferably the gun will have aftermarket support so if I get a .40 I can easily get a .357 barrel and vice versa).
  • Decent capacity. I live in MD where there is a 10 round limit for the sale of magazines, but there are no limits on what we can own and possess. Many Marylanders go to neighboring states to buy regular capacity mags and that is legal here. I'm not far at all from VA, DE and PA.
  • DAO or traditional DA/SA so I don't have to mess with a safety to put it into action if it was ever needed
 
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The Guns

  1. CZ PCR
  2. Glock 23 or 22
  3. S&W M&P40
  4. Ruger SR40
  5. SIG P250 Combact in .40 or P320 in .40
  6. SIG P2022 in .40 or .357
  7. SIG P229 in .40 or .357
  8. Springfield XDm (full size) or original XD (full size)

The PCR is a 9mm and I do want a .40 or .357 this time, but I've wanted a PCR for over a decade and haven't bought one. Other than my caliber preference on this purchase the PCR fits what I want just about perfectly (though at 1.38" it is a little wide). If the P06 had more than 10 rounds it would be prefect (the P01 is an updated PCR, the P06 is the P01 in .40S&W). I don't understand how everyone else can get 11-13 rounds in a .40 this size and CZ can only get 10.

The Ruger is a bit of a long shot. I know their reputation, they are reliable pistols. For me, the SR series feel really good in my hand. However, I had 2 Ruger autos that just were not very good (a KP89 which couldn't hit the side of a barn, and a KP345 which was an unreliable POS). That makes me a little shy when it comes to Ruger pistols even though I know my chances of another bad one are low and my LCP has been fine.

The SIG P229 is a little wider and heavier than would be ideal but it is one heck of a gun. I had one and sold it when I needed to pay rent more than I needed to keep the gun. The one I had was one of my most accurate guns and it was 100% reliable, I loved shooting it. So, while it doesn't perfectly fit my current criteria, like the CZ, it is close enough that it may be time to consider it. The P2022 is similar in size, but lighter, and from most of what I read about them, shooting characteristics are pretty close to the traditional P-Series SIGs so it may be a good budget option which is closer to what I'm looking for in this purchase than the P229.

The others all pretty much fit what I'm looking for just about perfectly (on paper at least) and all have their own separate advantages and disadvantages. Out of those, my top choices are the XD, XDm (a little bigger overall but narrower than the XD), and the Glock 23. I've shot the M&P before (it is OK, I like it overall but not the trigger), the Glock (it is only OK as a shooter, but they are usually quite reliable and meet what I want for carry perfectly), and the XD (at the range I like it the best of these three, but at 30oz for the full size it is a bit heavy and the 3.8" barrel XDm only drops it an ounce).
 
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The CZ P-07 chambered in .40S&W features 12 round cap mags in .40S&W although you'll have a hard time getting mags with greater than 10 round capacity shipped into MD;

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-p-07-9mm-black-polymer-interchangeable-back-straps-15-rd-mags/

Another really good idea would be to find a decent used HK USP Compact in .40S&W with a thumb safety and LEM trigger variant, just like the one I saw yesterday offered for $399.00. IMHO the CZ P-07 or the HK USP Compact should go to the top of your list.
 
The CZ P-07 chambered in .40S&W features 12 round cap mags in .40S&W
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True, my complaint should have been about the metal framed CZ .40's since the P07 is an exception. Even the full sized CZ 75B only holds 10 rounds in .40. I don't get it.

As for the P07, I've thought about it in the past, but I do prefer the metal framed CZs. I've never actually shot the CZ P07, only handled them in gun shops. If I see one at a range offered for rent, I'll be sure to rent one to see if my interest in them increases, but until then I probably won't put it on my list.

...although you'll have a hard time getting mags with greater than 10 round capacity shipped into MD;
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Good point. Buying online and having them shipped is also illegal and at any rate, no online retailer will ship here. It is only legal for Marylanders to physically go to other states to buy mags and bring them home. The law states "A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm." So, I can't buy online or in MD, but I can buy elsewhere and bring it home (but I can't even gift a mag I buy in another state, or be given one someone else bought, if it is being "transferred" in MD or if the recipient is "receiving" it in MD).

So, I should add a criteria:
-Because I can't get regular capacity mags shipped into MD and can only buy in person when out of state, they need to be readily available at gun shops and gun shows.

Though, I should be able to open a UPS Store or FedEx/Kinkos PO box and have them sent there, but that seems to be a lot of hassle (not to mention the monthly cost) for something that should be simple so I don't see actually doing it. Thus, the addition of the easily available at a gun shop or gun show requirement.

IMHO the CZ P-07 or the HK USP Compact should go to the top of your list.
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Good call, the HK USP (both Compact and full sized) should go on my list. I tend to forget about HK, a leftover of a time years ago before I decided I did like polymer pistols and of a time when I was relatively poor and bought a lot of guns keeping guns in this HK price range out of my reach. They make good guns, and the one time I was able to shoot one (a range partner let me shoot his a bit over 10 years ago) I really did like it quite a bit.

One question, the HK website shows the HK full sized as 1.26" wide and the compact as 1.38" which doesn't make much sense to me. Does anyone know if that is accurate? Are both models 1.26", or 1.38", and it is a misprint? Is it actually the other way around (compact is 1.26" and full size is 1.38)? Since my most important criteria as far as size (so long as certain minimum criteria are met) is width, this is actually a pretty important question to me.
 
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Revised Gun List and Criteria:

Gun List:
  • CZ PCR
  • Glock 23 (maybe the 22)
  • S&W M&P
  • Ruger SR40
  • SIG P250 Compact or P320 Carry in .40
  • SIG P2022
  • SIG P229
  • Springfield XDm (full size) or original XD (full size)
  • HK USP (both full size and compact)

Criteria:
  • No wider than my P250C and preferably narrower (no wider than the 1.3-1.4" range, and preferably 1.1-1.25")
  • As light as possible for the size so polymer or possibly alloy, but probably not steel
  • Still, enough weight for the caliber so it is comfortable at the range for plenty of practice and absorbs recoil for quick follow up shots
  • Combining the previous two, for most guns in 9mm, .357SIG or .40S&W I'm thinking 24-28oz, though for some guns I'd go an ounce or two either direction.
  • Caliber: unless it is a CZ PCR (9mm), it will be .40S&W (most likely) and maybe .357SIG (and, preferably the gun will have aftermarket support so if I get a .40 I can easily get a .357 barrel and vice versa).
  • Decent capacity. I live in MD where there is a 10 round limit for the sale of magazines, but there are no limits on what we can own and possess. Many Marylanders go to neighboring states to buy regular capacity mags and that is legal here. I'm not far at all from VA, DE and PA.
  • DAO or traditional DA/SA so I don't have to mess with a safety to put it into action if it was ever needed
  • Due to the fact that MD law means I can't buy regular capacity mags here, either in person or online, but I can go to another state to buy them, they need to be readily available at gun shops and gun shows. Regular capacity mags for the gun can't be rare enough that the main practical way to get them is to buy online.
 
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If you can get it done in 8 rounds, my choice would be the S&W Shield . You can always carry a second magazine . There is a reason they have produced more than a million Shields since its introduction .
 
Chaim: said:
One question, the HK website shows the HK full sized as 1.26" wide and the compact as 1.38" which doesn't make much sense to me. Does anyone know if that is accurate? Are both models 1.26", or 1.38", and it is a misprint? Is it actually the other way around (compact is 1.26" and full size is 1.38)? Since my most important criteria as far as size (so long as certain minimum criteria are met) is width, this is actually a pretty important question to me.
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Here's my own take on this;
If HK is measuring the USP and the USP Compact at their widest point, the floorplate with the "cool" pinky ledge on the USP Compact magazine may be slightly wider than the regular USP floorplate. Which would be strange for HK to measure it there as the widest point as those can be replaced or ordered without that floorplate. Other than that, there are no discernible differences between the frame or slide width dimensions between the USP and the USP Compact.
 
Of the three from your original and revised list, I would offer the following feedback:

Ruger SR c series: in 9mm I have found it to be a great, low cost striker fired pistol. It was 100% reliable for me every time I shot it. The trigger was decent and what I expect in a striker fired pistol. I don't have experience in the .40 flavor variation.

Sig P229: Also very fun to shoot. As you mentioned, it is a little heavier. The weight helps soak up recoil. Controls and trigger on the Sig are excellent. Also had been 100% reliable for me. Trigger was very good.

HK USPc: for me, probably the best controls ergonomically of any pistol I've shot. Trigger was very good. In this, I also only have experience with 9mm, not .40.

Regarding the dimensions on the USP, it could be they measured the width of the DAO on the full size, which I believe does not have the safety/decocker lever.
 
Good list. My short list, should I be going .40 and ruling out the Glock 27 (would be my first choice).

Glock 23 (my favorite .40 I've shot)
CZ P-07
Sig 320 Compact
CZ PCR
M&P 40c (if you can handle the trigger, I hate it even with APEX)
Ruger SR40c (with the pinky dongle you can still get a good 3 finger grip)

Could you not find the x-change kit for your Sig 250 for .40 S&W? I had one in the .40 compact and it was a solid carry option. The guy I traded it to still uses it as an EDC and loves it. Might save a few bones.

http://www.sigsauerguns.com/accesso...er-exchange-kit-10rd-calx-250c-40-bss-10.html
 
Well, I've thought more about it, and being the beginning of the school year (not a cheap time for a teacher) plus I'm trying to pay some debt down, I'm leaning towards the more budget side of my list right now. So, the Glock, XD, Ruger, and SIG P250 and P320 are probably a bit more likely. Most likely I'll have to put off the P229 once again, though I should keep the P2022 on the list since it should have most of the P229's advantages with a nice price savings. I haven't looked for a P07 at a range yet, but I really should since it could be a good budget option if I like shooting it. Unless I see a great used deal the HK will probably have to wait. The PCR, well, it is not the bargain of the less expensive polymer pistols but not as expensive as the HK and SIG P229 so it isn't as clear cut as to where I am putting it on my list right now.

Could you not find the x-change kit for your Sig 250 for .40 S&W? I had one in the .40 compact and it was a solid carry option.
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Funny you ask, one of the reasons I bought the P250 over other options at the time was the x-change kit (which was selling for under $300 and I think the MSRP wasn't much more at the time). Now, they seem to go for $399 with night sights, and at Buds you can get the full gun (with contrast sights) for just over $400. The couple dollar difference makes it hard for me to justify the kit when I could get a new fire control system (which means both guns could come to the range at the same time) for essentially the same price. When you consider the cost of the FFL transfer and the added value of the night sights the kit isn't a bad deal, but psychologically seeing that price tag on the full gun which is so close to the kit in price makes it hard to go with the kit. At any rate, it isn't enough of a price difference to definitely put it ahead of some of the other guns I'm considering. Still, if I do decide to do the compact or subcompact P250 in .40 I may go with the kit instead of the full gun.
 
I have a Sig 2022 in 40cal. It's a great gun but I (personally) don't consider it for a carry gun. To bulky and heavy for me especially when I have a PF9 or my XDS 4.0 45acp to choose from. If I wanted to carry a full size I would opt to carry my SR9.
 
Of that list, the SR40c. (You can use the full size mags w/ extension at the range or as spares, and the -c just carries better, IMHO.) Of all the guns in the .40 class, this one's the best I've shot, and I've shot most of them....
Of course the XD(M) is a great choice, too.

If you want a bit more oomph, I'd say the H&K USP compact, but in .45!
Why?
It's just magical in this platform, once you shoot it, you'll understand. A bit chunky for carry, but if I needed a gun to defend my life, I'd want this one.
The .45 is just easier to shoot better. Long range accurate, and short range fast, but shoots soooo much better (*For me.) than .40 at distance.....
 
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Remember that the Sig 2022 and 229 have that full length grip, which is the biggest issue with concealment for me. Great guns but I prefer a grip around 5" as the max grip length (for me) for easy concealment.

Funny you ask, one of the reasons I bought the P250 over other options at the time was the x-change kit (which was selling for under $300 and I think the MSRP wasn't much more at the time). Now, they seem to go for $399 with night sights, and at Buds you can get the full gun (with contrast sights) for just over $400. The couple dollar difference makes it hard for me to justify the kit when I could get a new fire control system (which means both guns could come to the range at the same time) for essentially the same price. When you consider the cost of the FFL transfer and the added value of the night sights the kit isn't a bad deal, but psychologically seeing that price tag on the full gun which is so close to the kit in price makes it hard to go with the kit. At any rate, it isn't enough of a price difference to definitely put it ahead of some of the other guns I'm considering. Still, if I do decide to do the compact or subcompact P250 in .40 I may go with the kit instead of the full gun.
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I understand. When I got my P250 years ago I was able to get the 9mm compact, a .40 x-change kit and 2 mags for each (compact and full size) for $450. Can't do that these days.
 
Especially since I'm leaning towards the budget route, I've decided to add a few guns to my list...

The first has been around for quite some time and has an established reputation as a reliable and relatively accurate pistol. It is often overlooked because its trigger is subpar and the first generation of them (two decades ago) had some issues. However, as said, it has a proven reputation as a good functional/practical gun, if not the most sophisticated, and it is even cheaper than the Ruger. It has been around long enough and have sold enough that I should be able to find mags, though I may need a couple trips to gun shows to actually find them. The first gun to add to my list is...

S&W SW40VE (or whatever the current designation is)

The next guns (or variation on the same gun) is only available used so prices will be decent, but it was a very well made gun in its day (even if its reputation sometimes suffered compared to other guns of the time). It was a very popular police gun, and they are generally well made, well designed, accurate and reliable. They were made for a while, were very popular with police, and somewhat popular with the general public, so mags should be fairly easy to find. The next gun (or set of guns) to add to my list...

3rd Gen S&W Autos (specifically the alloy .40s and 9mms...the 4003, 4004, 6904, 5903 and 5904, and the value series 915/910 and 411/410).

I would be tempted to add the Taurus PT940 to my list. I was a huge fan of the PT945, PT911 and PT940 and wanted one when I first started shooting. The metal framed Taurus autos seem to be some of their best guns, and these were from the era (mid-1990s to mid-2000s) where Taurus made their best guns and I love the innovative safety. There are a few used on Gunbroker, and one shop right now has a number of new old stock with a buy it now price of $339. However, many of the 3rd Gen S&Ws are going for similar prices, were likely better made guns, and they sold in far higher numbers so magazines, holsters, and other accessories will be far easier to find (and yes, I am writing this sentence here largely to try to talk myself out of hitting that buy it now button on one of the NOS PT940).
 
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Here is the revised list (in no particular order):

-CZ PCR
-Glock 23 (maybe the Glock 27 with G23 mags and mag extensions)
-Ruger SR40
-SIG P250 Compact or P320 Carry in .40
-Springfield XDm or original XD, leaning XD over XDm (price)
-3rd Gen S&W auto
-S&W SD40VE (trigger may not be great, but the price is)


The HK is off due to price, the SIG P2022 and P229 are mostly off since they really are a bit bigger/heavier than I'm looking for with this purchase (though I'll get one if I see an impossible to pass upon deal), and the S&W M&P is off because I really don't like the trigger. I'm keeping the Ruger on the list since I'm leaning towards price/value right now and I know they are reliable, accurate and well made, but I don't know if this is the time I'll be able to convince myself to buy one despite my bad history with Ruger or not. The 3rd Gen S&W autos may be near the top of the list right now (especially if I find one locally in good shape that I can personally check as opposed to buying sight unseen online) due to value (great price to quality) and ability to easily find accessories. Though, I may lean 9mm if I go that way (the 11 round capacity of the full sized 3rd gen .40S&W is a little disappointing)
 
What do you guys think of the S&W SD40VE v. the used 3rd Gen S&W autos? The 3rd gen are probably better overall (near SIG quality) and right now the prices can be similar (a mint 3rd gen will be more, one with honest holster wear but quite functional will be about the price of a new SW40VE). However, the SD40VE is still in production and the 3rd gen has been out of production for a while, I'm not sure if the 3rd gen autos are still supported by the factory if I needed to send it in and the SD definitely is, and longer term it is likely that accessories for the SD40VE will be available longer. Though, since the 3rd gen were in production for a while and they sold in far greater numbers than the SD, even if S&W no longer stocks parts, parts and smiths who can work on the guns should be available for quite some time to come (and despite being out of production, may even be easier to come by than parts and smiths for the SD40VE).
 
So, I went to a local gun store that had 4 of my options: the S&W SD40VE, the XD, the Glock 23, and the Ruger SR40. The SD has a good feel in the hand and is nearly a perfect intermediate size (like I'm looking for), but the trigger (while not horrible) was noticeably worse than the other three (by far). The Glock was the next worst in trigger, but the best in form factor (good feel in the hand, as close to a perfect size as possible). I loved the feel of both the XD and Ruger in my hand. They were both good sizes. The Ruger was a little better in weight and thinness. Yet, something about the XD (despite the fact that on size related measures it may have been the worst) was my favorite (the trigger being pretty decent was probably a big part of that- it may be the best striker trigger I've ever felt). So, I may be dropping the SD (though price makes it hard to do so), and I will definitely have to rent the other three. I have a .45 SIG P250 Compact, but it is a little bigger than the Compact in .40 (wider anyway) so I would like to handle one at the store, and it has been a while since I handled a PCR (I know I won't find one for rent), so I do have to hit some more stores (as well as the rental range) before I buy. One thing I did decide 100% for sure, I will not be buying from the gun store I went to (I also went to Bass Pro Shops and their prices, were a good $50-100 less than the gun store).

Right now I think my order (out of the four I handled and dry fired yesterday) is: XD, Ruger (best combo of form factor and trigger, yet I like the XD better anyway), Glock (I need to rent the Glock to see if I can get over the springy trigger, maybe it won't be so noticeable under recoil), SD40VE (but the price keeps it from dropping off the list, the trigger wasn't quite that bad). If the .40 P250 Compact doesn't feel thinner than my .45 all of those felt significantly thinner than my .45ACP P250 Compact and will probably drop it off the list due to that (though what may save it is the advantage of having all my CCW guns having the same MOA and feel, and essentially being different caliber/size versions of the same gun- I consider the P290 a micro-9 version of the P250).
 
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