Don't point that at me!

Honestly, if you go to a store with a big gun shop like Cabelas or BPS and are uncomfortable with people pointing weapons in your direction, I would suggest walking past that section....at least at stores near me.

I go to Cabelas frequently, moreso because they always have great sales, great products, and its a huge ****in store thats a lot of fun to hangout for a few hours.

What I was going towards is everyone flashes the weapons muzzles everywhere, its not only dangerous but unfortunate that so many people are so irresponsible with firearms. Im moreso talking about Cabelas and very big sporting goods stores where there are a lot of patrons, not really like your LGS that has a few people in it, knowing what they want, how they want it, and are mostly responsible shooters.

I mean sure, one person waving it at you is one thing but two...three, cmon. I can also understand being somewhat inexperienced and wanting to 'target sight' a handgun by pointing it down at the floor. I feel this is safe and it gives you a chance to check out the sights but as soon as it gets raised, its incredible no one speaks up or even looks over at the guy that has a weapon pointed at someone else in the store.

Ive seen it happen many times but big stores like that (Cabelas, BPS) come with a price....a price of numerous inexperienced firearm enthusiasts doing stupid things.
 
"Rules" and dogma will never truly make us safe.
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Really? Because it's worked for me for almost 40 years. Every negligent discharge I've seen involves violating those dogmatic rules.

Using your brain, thinking clearing about what you are doing and why you are doing it, and using common courtesy will make us safer than relying on dogma.
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I've never tried it, but I'm guessing common courtesy won't stop a bullet.

The problem with rules like "the gun is always loaded" is that the gun is not always loaded. We all know that.
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With all due respect, we don't know that. I'm certainly not going to stake my life on it.

We have simple, "dogmatic" rules because they work, and they're easy to remember. If someone grows up thinking every gun is always loaded, they're going to treat firearms with the care they deserve. If they grow up thinking that the gun "might be loaded but probably isn't," we've got a recipe for tragedy.
 
The ONLY time a gun isn't loaded is when it has been cleared by all concerned and there is no ammunition in the area.

As an example, in a factory that makes guns, they are often pointed every which way.

All other times, a gun is loaded. Whether it is or not.
 
Gee, I thought it was just common sense to not point a gun at people when in a gun store --- but common sense is not necessarily a god-given gift. If idiots could fly, we would never see the sun. And our liberal laws allow idiots to marry and procreate.
 
A few months back I was at a large rock quarry that the Forest Service had designated for target shooting. I realize now why people are willing to pay the fee to go to an actual shooting range (range master, etc) given the following experience.

Two guys and a girl showed up, for what I'm guessing was the girls first time shooting a pistol. They were standing about 10 feet away, and after shooting the pistol the girl screamed, I'm guessing as she was startled. I looked over to see her pointing the gun at my face with her finger on the trigger, looking absolutely terrified. I immediately told her to point it somewhere else, but the thing that really got me was that the two guys "teaching" her to shoot didn't think it was that big of a deal. Regardless to say, I decided pack it up for the day. :rolleyes:
 
I am not very diplomatic when it comes to guns being pointed at me. Loaded or unloaded makes no difference.

It is possible to manipulate a firearm in a store without having the muzzle cover anyone, it just takes a lot of willingness to be safe. Most people aren't willing.

Biker
 
I appreciate this thread. I always get jumpy when i'm shooting with friends who don't watch where they are pointing while reloading & such. I feel like a scaredeecat or newb or whatever, but it just wigs me out a bit. I remember when i picked up my XD45 earlier this year, it was handed to me slide back, but i still felt like it needed to be pointed down and kept it that way to look it over.

It is nice to know i'm not the only "jumpy" one. :)
 
The 4 Rules are mnemonic devices to lay out safety issues. Obviously, all guns aren't always loaded.

The point being is that they could be loaded when you don't think so - so, check, check, check and then still don't point it at folks.
 
Wow. I am planning to go to my first gun show tomorrow (and not an especially big one)....and now you are really scaring me!
 
Go to the gunshow by all means

Hi 9MMare,
By all means go to the gunshow, just keep your eye open for anyone pointing at you, and be conscoius of not pointing a firearm at anyone.
Cheers,
Danny
 
I was just at a LGS a couple days ago. I've gone there for years with no problems and respect the owner. I wanted to see a viriginian dragoon .44 mag he had behind the counter. He got the gun out and without even checking to see if it was unloaded, handed it to me with the muzzle pointing at my chest. Needless to say I was dumbfounded and quickly pointed the muzzle at the ground and checked the cylinder. I should have quickly said something but I was speechless, as I never had an owner, or anyone for that matter, muzzle sweep me. Especially not with a .44mag :eek:
 
Kayla, the gun shows I've been to have required that all weapons be unloaded, and zip-ties run through the actions to prevent loading without first cutting the zip-tie. Local LEOs in uniform have provided security and have checked people at the door.

No guarantee that's what you'll find in NV, but that's what I've seen in FL, GA, and TN.

Enjoy the show.
 
This was posted by a staff member from TFL:
"The 4 Rules are mnemonic devices to lay out safety issues. Obviously, all guns aren't always loaded. The point being is that they could be loaded when you don't think so - so, check, check, check and then still don't point it at folks. "

No one jumped on him, but what he said IS what I said.

If you dry fire a gun, it is, by definition, unloaded. (If it is not unloaded, that is live fire, not dry fire.) Using your brain, thinking through what you are doing and why you are doing it to "check, check, check" you can determine if a gun is loaded or not. Hopefully, most people do exactly that before during and after dry firing. Teaching them to use their brain and think through what they are doing is a lot more safe than simply handing out dogma that says the gun is always loaded. To pull the trigger for dry firing, you have to ignore the dogma that "the gun is always loaded" or else you would not ever pull the trigger during dry firing and hence it would be dry holding not dry firing. So, I think we can all agree that in order for anyone, ever, to practice dry firing, that person has to disregard that particular rule. And THAT's where the dogma gets people into trouble because we empower ourselves to disregard a "rule" that we have convinced ourselves is always in force. That creates the opportunity for mental confusion, carelessness, and mistakes. Teaching people to think very carefully about what they're doing, and making sure they do not rely on rote memorization of "rules" but instead actively use their brain to think will provide a much safer experience for everyone.

Likewise, if a gun shop clerk takes a gun out of a display and checks to make sure it is unloaded, using her brain and thinking it through to "check, check, check" then that clerk knows that the gun she is handing off is unloaded. If the customer uses his brain and thinks carefully about what he's doing to "check, check, check" that the gun just handed to him is unloaded, then the customer and the clerk know it is unloaded. That gun is NOT loaded. Sorry to trample your dogma, but it is NOT loaded. It is not polite to point the unloaded gun at the clerk or another customer, but that unloaded gun is NOT loaded. Don't confuse politeness with safety. Don't diminish the importance of safety by making it of equal importance in your mind to courtesy.

Lastly, I think the "rule" of the gun is always loaded should be replaced by a one sentance summary of how to ascertain if the gun is loaded or not. Maybe something like, (just as an example): "You must use your fingers and your eyes to check the chamber, the magazine, and the magwell to be able to know for sure that a gun is unloaded." Something like that would be a lot better than "all guns are always loaded".
 
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ursavus, I've understood "the gun is always loaded", to actually translate to, "no matter how much you think the gun is unloaded, always practice muzzle control."

But in reality, it is easier for people to remember little sentences than it is longer, more complex thoughts.

I don't think, "the gun is always loaded", leads to problems. I haven't met anyone stupid enough to take that literally.

And, lastly, just because the guy behind the counter checked for clear, doesn't mean: 1) that I trust his judgment; 2) that it's okay to point it at me.
 
Yes, I've heard lots of stories of ND at gun shows!! Possibly more than any other public place. Though I don't know the statistical likelihood.

ETA: speaking of which....where is a safe place to point the muzzle at a gun show? Maybe the setup isn't like I imagine, but if it's just tables, in a room, anything other than up or down is likely AT someone, right?
 
Safety and Courtesy

The "treat every gun as if it is loaded" phrase is for Safety and Courtesy.

If I am handed a gun that I do not intend to discharge, then it is my responsibility to treat it like it is a loaded gun until I know otherwise. I must check to make sure it is not loaded before I test it out. If I intend to discharge the gun then I must treat it as if it is loaded since my intent is to send a bullet out of that gun. That is safety.

If I am at a range (or anywhere) and someone hands me their gun. I would check to make sure the action/cylinder is clear before handling further. This is courtesy to the owner of the gun and those around me. It also shows I am responsible and can be trusted with another individuals gun.

It is also courtesy not to sweep someone with a muzzle regardless of whether I've checked or not. As far as I'm concerned the individual I've muzzle swept has no idea whether or not the gun is loaded and hasn't had the opportunity to personally check. It is common courtesy and in the best interest of those around you to not do so. It is arrogance to think that just because you "know it is unloaded" that someone else should just believe you.
 
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