Don't Get the SR9 Mag Disconnect

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Originally posted by Fishbed77
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If one is involved in a struggle over the gun, a gun with a magazine disconnect can be disabled by simply ejecting the magazine thus giving the person trying to retain the weapon more time to regain control of it, draw a backup weapon, or make a hasty retreat.

You hear this brought up time and again by those defending mag disconnects, but can anyone show proof of any instance of this tactic ever having been used successfully? If you can activate a mag release, it likely means that you already have control of a firearm.
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No, I don't have any documented cases at hand, but I have heard this rationale quoted by various people within the LE community. Also, if you read the portion of my post prior to that you cut and pasted, you will see that I'm not defending a magazine disconnect and that I stated up front that I'm ambivalent about them. Point of fact, I own five semi-automatic handguns and only one of them happens to have a magazine disconnect. My point was that a magazine disconnect's sole purpose isn't necessarily "nothing more than lawyer/politician designed features meant to ensure the "safety" of the public, but with no real basis in fact."

Also, if you look at the history of magazine disconnects, you'll find that many of the earlier examples were implemented not because of our litigious society, but because military/police customers wanted such a feature. For example, such a feature was specified by the French Government when they began searching for a new pistol to replace their M1892 Revolver and various other handguns that they had in service. FN commissioned John Browning (and, after Browning's sudden death, Dieudonne Saive) to design a pistol to pursue this contract and thus a magazine disconnect was eventually incorporated into the Hi-Power pistol (though the French Government eventually decided to adopt the Modele 1935 pistol chambered for 7.65x20 Longue).

On the other hand, there are plenty of recorded instances of holstered pistols being drawn with a mag that has accidentally been released due to pressure on the thumb button release (which is precisely why I favor HK/Walther style paddle releases over button releases).
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Would you care to share some of these documented cases? I know that I have rather large hands which I'd think would make me more prone to this problem yet I've never experienced it shooting any handgun with a push-button mag release including examples made by Colt, S&W, Ruger, CZ, Sig, Glock, Walther, Beretta, Taurus, and a few other lesser-known makers nor have I ever met another shooter with hands large or small who ever experienced this problem.
 
I know gun safety is t nonsense. I take it very seriously. But I have left ranges and gun shops when I see the unsafe idiots who are handling weapons. And since there is no requirement to demonstrate a minimum proficiency before buying a weapon (another topic I don't wanna get into) then the fact is that there are unsafe idiots out there who are causing injuries and deaths due to their incompetence. I can recall three in the last year alone that made the news. One of them a father killing his son when he went into a gun shop to sell a used gun. Took the mag out and left it in car. Neither be of the clerk ever checked the chamber.

This is a long debated topic and I admit I have my stance on it. But I'm willing to change if somebody can give me actual proof that they are a bad thing. I can show dozens of cases with very little effort but nobody can point me to an actual (not a "I know a guy who dropped his magazine") case. As for relying on them, I don't. Just because a gun is inert with the mag out doesn't mean I disregard gun safety rules. Truthfully, I want them in the highly unlikely case of my kids ever getting into my safe. My house gun (right now a 6906 but the sr9 will take over the role after I put it through its paces) is locked in a gunvault with the mag next to the gun. Open safe and armed in about 3 seconds. As for them making bad habits, I call bs. Do seat lets and airbags make people drive more recklessly? How about engine cutoffs on lawn mowers and chainsaws? Does having an alarm on your house make you more likely to leave your door unlocked?

The opponents of them point to the extremely unlikely "in a gun fight I might need that one round when tactically reloading or if the mag comes out". But the truth is the odds are far higher that you have an ND. And it could be in your first week of gun ownership or your 59th year. And the person killed is just as dead.
 
Would you care to share some of these documented cases? I know that I have rather large hands which I'd think would make me more prone to this problem yet I've never experienced it shooting any handgun with a push-button mag release including examples made by Colt, S&W, Ruger, CZ, Sig, Glock, Walther, Beretta, Taurus, and a few other lesser-known makers nor have I ever met another shooter with hands large or small who ever experienced this problem.
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This has nothing to do with hand size. It is a result of the mag release being inadvertently depressed while the gun is holstered (due to external pressure from the outside of the holster). If this happens to a pistol with mag disconnect, the pistol is rendered useless prior to any discharge. Pistols without a mag disconnect will at least fire once before presenting a malfunction.
 
Homerboy said:
I can show dozens of cases with very little effort but nobody can point me to an actual (not a "I know a guy who dropped his magazine") case.
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Then show them to us. Because so far, your examples are just as nebulous and anecdotal as everyone else's.

Homerboy said:
The opponents of them point to the extremely unlikely "in a gun fight I might need that one round when tactically reloading or if the mag comes out". But the truth is the odds are far higher that you have an ND. And it could be in your first week of gun ownership or your 59th year. And the person killed is just as dead.
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Not all of the opponents oppose them soley for that reason. I actually agree that it's highly unlikely to be an issue in a gunfight.

I actually have had my mag release get pressed in my holster before and release my mag, I carried the gun all day without noticing that the mag was released because it stayed in the gun, it just wasn't seated. But because I didn't have a mag safety, if I had needed my gun I would have had a single shot at least.

But my main argument against mag safeties is the one I've presented twice already: I think they make guns LESS safe overall by encouraging poor gun handling in those who rely on their safeties too much.
 
I would be happy to show them. I read about three in the past year alone. But what would it prove? You would just say "the operator was negligent in handling the weapon", and "he disobeyed the fundamental rule of firearm safety". And I would agree with that. But since people are human, and they DO make mistakes, that is exactly why I like them.

We have safety devices on everything, and nobody complains. Do you really feel all that put out when you have to press and twist the cap on a medicine bottle? Or when you have to press the brake before shifting into gear? Or how about when you have to squeeze the bar on a push mower or the engine will die? Me neither.

Now, I know you're gonna say "those devices aren't used for split second life and death scenarios", and I would agree. But you're playing the odds that that life or death scenario that you imagine getting into are lower than you making a human error, and the statistics on that don't lie. Because the odds of you or I actually getting into a gunfight are probably higher than getting struck by lightning.

Accidentally shooting somebody, on the other hand, is MUCH more common. I just googled "Accidental Shootings, 2014, Unloaded", and came across about 25 stories, (I stopped after the first 2 pages) where the shooters ALL thought the gun was unloaded when it wasn't. These included cops, hunters, gun store clerks, soldiers, people who are certainly familiar with firearms, and yet somehow they screwed up.

And while YOU feel supremely confident that you won't mess up, how will that matter when it's you or somebody you care about that takes a bullet?
 
Homerboy said:
I would be happy to show them. I read about three in the past year alone. But what would it prove?
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It would prove you're not a hypocrite. You're repeatedly referencing these cases, and refuting other people's arguments as being anecdotal. Yet you refuse to present any actual evidence yourself.
 
Homerboy said:
Accidentally shooting somebody, on the other hand, is MUCH more common. I just googled "Accidental Shootings, 2014, Unloaded", and came across about 25 stories, (I stopped after the first 2 pages) where the shooters ALL thought the gun was unloaded when it wasn't. These included cops, hunters, gun store clerks, soldiers, people who are certainly familiar with firearms, and yet somehow they screwed up.
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Are saying that all of these guns had rounds chambered, mags out and DID NOT HAVE a magazine safety? Most soldiers don't have duty guns with mag safeties, and an increasing number of cops don't either.
 
Homerboy: you cited 25 cases of accidental shootings, but showed us only three where it was due to the absence of a mag safety. As I said in an ealier post, I agree that a magazine safety can keep people from doing stupid or dangerous things with SOME guns they think are unloaded...

But I think you've subtly changed direction in mid-discussion -- maybe because this discussion is going in so many different directions at one time. :)

Several of us we asking for proof that the use of mag safeties caused people who dropped their magazine inadvertently were put at risk (i.e., were unarmed) at times when it mattered. That's the negative case.

Theohazard said:
I actually have had my mag release get pressed in my holster before and release my mag, I carried the gun all day without noticing that the mag was released because it stayed in the gun, it just wasn't seated. But because I didn't have a mag safety, if I had needed my gun I would have had a single shot at least.
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I'm not sure how Theohazard knew that he had carried the gun all day without noticing the problem; he apparently believed that it could only have happened when he first holstered the gun. Perhaps. But I suspect -- depending on the holster design -- that it could have happened at some other time, like when he was adjusting his gear after sitting at lunch, or after exiting a car. But he was right that he still would have had a first shot, and we can understand why He does NOT LIKE mag safeties.

I'm just put off by all of the anecdotal stories about the need for or the danger of mag safeties. You've given us three non-anecdotal stories about why they might be a good thing.
 
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Very well, then.

Edited to add: Apparently, the request to stop bickering fell on deaf ears. I've deleted the post and been forced to close the thread.
 
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