LewSchiller
New member
A'yup
Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store
- Thread starter pelican
- Start date
A'yup
You can tell him to stay, but, in my opinion, if he decides to leave, you don't really have many reasonable option for stopping him that won't cause you more trouble than it's worth.
If you're smart? Not much other than stand there and watch him leave. Get the license plates of his vehicle if you can, otherwise just get a description and note which way he goes so you can tell the police when they get there.
As long as I'm reasonably sure of a fairly rapid police response, I'd probably tell him to get on the floor and not to move. If he obeys, that's great. If he decides to leave, he'd better do it without coming my direction. If he does leave, I'm just going to watch him go, keeping him covered as he walks out.
Called the manager today.
He said he was in the "back room" (a very small space, separated from the sales area by a door. The chair at the desk faces front, one step from the door). He heard the case smash, and jumped to the door.
The first look he got was the BG holding a gun and a bat. He didn't see the knife.
Manager drew and yelled.
BG dropped the gun and bat-- dropped, not set down.
Manager ordered the BG to the ground. BG complied.
Manager contacted police, knowing he would let the BG run if he tried to flee.
He handled it very well.
He said he was in the "back room" (a very small space, separated from the sales area by a door. The chair at the desk faces front, one step from the door). He heard the case smash, and jumped to the door.
The first look he got was the BG holding a gun and a bat. He didn't see the knife.
Manager drew and yelled.
BG dropped the gun and bat-- dropped, not set down.
Manager ordered the BG to the ground. BG complied.
Manager contacted police, knowing he would let the BG run if he tried to flee.
He handled it very well.
It really is a gamble. Possibly a weighted gamble, though. I think I remember reading that studies of crimes caught on security cameras showed that BGs who were confronted with actions other than compliance took an average of 2-3 seconds to mentally process and rationalize what was happening. I can't quote the source, but it seems to have held up, in my experience and others. Responding to aggression (where submission is the expected response) with explosive violence/movement/yelling does seem to cause aggressors to seize up.
Don't bring a baseball bat into a gun store
Fellows, a baseball bat is a baseball bat, right up until you use it for something, other than what it was designed for. The punk who went into the gun store used it to open locked gun display cases, to "rob" the owner of his merchandise. The baseball bat was to smash the cases, and if the GS owner has not used his head, the perp would have used it to inflict blunt trauma, to the GS owner. Now the baseball bat is now a deadly weapon.
The GS owner used a handgun, to hold a robber, a person who had just committed a felonious act in his presence, to his property, and lucky for the robber, he did not attempt to assault the owner, because I am sure the gun store owner went to the same school, I attended. Never pull iron unless you have every intent to use it, if forced! This is one of our inalienable rights, people talk about. Use of the Second Amendment , in "real time"!
He might have run out of my shop, when ordered to stop and lay face down on the floor, but the police would have had no problem finding/identifying him, as he would have had a large hole in him..Justified, damn right!
Fellows, a baseball bat is a baseball bat, right up until you use it for something, other than what it was designed for. The punk who went into the gun store used it to open locked gun display cases, to "rob" the owner of his merchandise. The baseball bat was to smash the cases, and if the GS owner has not used his head, the perp would have used it to inflict blunt trauma, to the GS owner. Now the baseball bat is now a deadly weapon.
The GS owner used a handgun, to hold a robber, a person who had just committed a felonious act in his presence, to his property, and lucky for the robber, he did not attempt to assault the owner, because I am sure the gun store owner went to the same school, I attended. Never pull iron unless you have every intent to use it, if forced! This is one of our inalienable rights, people talk about. Use of the Second Amendment , in "real time"!
He might have run out of my shop, when ordered to stop and lay face down on the floor, but the police would have had no problem finding/identifying him, as he would have had a large hole in him..Justified, damn right!
If you think shooting someone who is running away from a crime scene is justified, you're going to spend a lot defending yourself in criminal court and then lose whatever else you have left in a civil judgement in the unlikely event that you manage to escape conviction in the criminal prosecution.
Theohazard
New member
All you do by saying things like this is give more ammo to the people who think our guns should be confiscated and that we should have no right to defend ourselves.
Like JohnKSa said: If you think you have the legal right to shoot someone as they run away - someone who poses no threat to you - you're probably going to have legal issues in the future.
And if you think you have a moral right to shoot someone as they run away, then I'm not sure what moral code you're following; in most moral codes I know of, revenge is not OK. Because in this case, if he ran away and you shot him, that would only be revenge for smashing your display case, pure and simple. How many legal and religious systems approve of revenge?
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Evan Thomas
Inactive
We've deleted some posts. Neither the Zimmerman trial nor the race of the suspect is relevant.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
These are the situations that personally bug me the most about living in Los Angeles. Although, I would never have to worry about defending an LGS or such (my line of work is far different), I do about my home. California has picky laws about the application of force. If an armed robber with a bat or blunt object came into my home and started rummaging through my property while i was asleep at night, I would be a little unsure how to handle it. If he had a knife or firearm as well, then the issue would a little easier to discern.
Escalation of conflict is quite the grey area for some states.
Edit: This always peaks my curiosity about how my local Range or LGS would handle a break in.
Escalation of conflict is quite the grey area for some states.
Edit: This always peaks my curiosity about how my local Range or LGS would handle a break in.
gun shop thefts; armed robbery....
About 4/5 years ago, the small gun range & shop where I've done a few re-quals was robbed by a group of 3 armed thugs. The manager, a young guy in his mid 20s shot & wounded all 3 of the felons.
Around 6 weeks later the exact same gun range & shop had a late night "smash & grab" robbery where crooks stole a pile of guns & ammuntion
.
Gun ranges and FFL holder locations can be a target for bad guys who want a fast score or new hardware.
About 4/5 years ago, the small gun range & shop where I've done a few re-quals was robbed by a group of 3 armed thugs. The manager, a young guy in his mid 20s shot & wounded all 3 of the felons.
Around 6 weeks later the exact same gun range & shop had a late night "smash & grab" robbery where crooks stole a pile of guns & ammuntion
.Gun ranges and FFL holder locations can be a target for bad guys who want a fast score or new hardware.
Look up the laws involved.
According to Oregon statutory law, the manager - or counter clerk, for that matter - can 'arrest' a person attempting to rob or burglarize the premises.
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/133.225
Also in Oregon statutory law, a private person making an arrest under the above statue may use physical force as needed to keep the arrested person from escaping. (The general rule under court decisions is the force used must be 'reasonable' - what ever that might mean.)
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/161.255
Of course, the arrested person can always bring a tort law suit later. Which will also typically happen in a shooting as well.
Now, not all states have 'private party arrest' laws. Nor do all jurisdictions 'like' it. Check local listings.
According to Oregon statutory law, the manager - or counter clerk, for that matter - can 'arrest' a person attempting to rob or burglarize the premises.
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/133.225
Also in Oregon statutory law, a private person making an arrest under the above statue may use physical force as needed to keep the arrested person from escaping. (The general rule under court decisions is the force used must be 'reasonable' - what ever that might mean.)
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/161.255
Of course, the arrested person can always bring a tort law suit later. Which will also typically happen in a shooting as well.
Now, not all states have 'private party arrest' laws. Nor do all jurisdictions 'like' it. Check local listings.
All of that is trivia, really. He wasn't going to shoot unless the BG attacked.
Also of note: the backstop would have been the all glass store front, and Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway traffic. There were a lot of reasons to NOT shoot.
Lost Sheep
New member
I understand that, in most jurisdictions, lethal force requires three elements to be considered lawfully used:pelican said:
1 The threat must be of deadly nature, or of grave physical harm. Threat of a property nature are rarely justification, but are in some jurisdictions)
2 The threat must be IMMEDIATE (seconds, not minutes or more)
3 The threat must be credible (a club from across the room may not be credible, but a loaded gun or a drawn bow and arrow would be, for example)
4 Some jurisdictions require you to (attempt to) withdraw before using deadly force. These are definitely NOT "stand your ground" jurisdictions.
The specifics and nuances vary across the nation, but MOST jurisdictions agree on the general elements.
If he was opening display cases of unloaded guns with the bat and not swinging at anyone, deadly force would NOT be justified in most places. If he was swinging at someone's head, most places would allow for a "good shoot", but burden of proof may or may not fall on the shooter. Be aware.
Lost Sheep
Clubs & knives/edged weapons, 2011...
I disagree with the premise that a club or knife/edged weapon from a distance isn't a serious threat. If the subject is 100 yards away yes. But 10/20 feet? no sir chief
.
Violent or intoxicated subjects can swing a bat or stick or charge at you in a rampage as fast as you could draw or yield a long gun(12ga pump or short barrel rifle).
I worked with a sheriff's office deputy who claimed there are restrictions on use of force levels for knives or impact weapons(blackjacks, saps, bats, etc). I took issue with that.
A violent crook is going to swing a stick or club until they can get a gun then cause more problems.
I disagree with the premise that a club or knife/edged weapon from a distance isn't a serious threat. If the subject is 100 yards away yes. But 10/20 feet? no sir chief
.Violent or intoxicated subjects can swing a bat or stick or charge at you in a rampage as fast as you could draw or yield a long gun(12ga pump or short barrel rifle).
I worked with a sheriff's office deputy who claimed there are restrictions on use of force levels for knives or impact weapons(blackjacks, saps, bats, etc). I took issue with that.
A violent crook is going to swing a stick or club until they can get a gun then cause more problems.
That is correct. A sharp instrument or an impact weapon can be brought to bear and inflict deadly force from 21 feet away within 1 to 1/12 seconds. Faster than many folks can adequately draw and accurately hit a stationary target let alone a quickly advancing assailant. The Tuller drill distance has been updated from 21 to 30 feet I understand. That was my most recent information from the trainers.
Folks don't tend to do a lot of missing with contact weapons either, and they don't run out of ammo either.
Folks don't tend to do a lot of missing with contact weapons either, and they don't run out of ammo either.