Dog Training Issues

Mike-
I am not familiar with the gentle leader and will not speak one way or the other on its use. I have read about and have seen(or used) a number of different methods of training(mostly for brid-dogs) and IMHO they will all work when applied consistantly and properly.
I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the use of the electronic training collar.

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WFM
Life NRA, LLEA, Quail Unlimited,Ducks Unlimited
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
Hey Hounddawg,
I'm glad you THINK you know what your dogs are feeling. No one, not even your vet, can tell you how those dogs perceive or respond to an electrical shock. [/quote]

No offense, Mike, but if he doesn't know what the dog is feeling then how do you? Training is the key, and constant training at that. We used a choke chain and training every day with success.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
When used correctly, the Gentle Leader provides the dog with a MUCH more direct cause/effect example, because the dog, by pulling ahead, moving away, or falling behind the handler, causes the lead to tighten up, which causes the dog's head to be pulled down via the over-muzzle strap. The more the dog pulls away, the more the muzzle is pulled down. [/quote]

I had zero success with this tool on my part chow. She learned very quickly to bear down and drag me around. The only thing she got out of it was stronger neck muscles :). A choke chain was more helpful, but she's still a damn bitch :).



[This message has been edited by EricM (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
EricM,

I DON'T know what the dog is feeling. And that's EXACTLY WHY I'm not about to use a shock collar.

With a flexible training collar or a Gentle Leader, I know EXACTLY what force I'm putting on the dog, and I can vary that force as necessary. Hands-on training is MUCH superior to remote control training, because at the same time you're there to correct the dog.

Granted, that's not always possible with retrievers. But I have trained Border Collies and GSDs in field trial work, which requires the same kind of physical separation, and I would NEVER consider using a shock collar in that situation, either.


WF,

Make a deal with you. You wear the collar, I get the button for a week. :) And then we won't switch. :D

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike,

I invite you to try using a choke collar when a hound is half a mile away and chasing a deer or bobcat. Remote collars have their purposes. Yeah, a choke collar might work when you are training a dog to heel, sit, or whatever, at close range. My dogs aren't pretty little walk around the park and don't crap on the grass dogs. They are get down to business coon dogs. We all have different methods for training our dogs for whatever purpose they serve. Yuo use your way, we'll use ours.
 
Gunslinger
I never had a timber wolf to eat my recliner, but I did have a Samoyed that ate a 3'x 2' hole in the wall. I guess she was still hungry after dining on my son's bedspread.

In my best Mr. Rogers voice ... "Can we say Humane Society? I knew you could!"

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Refuse to be a "helpless" victim.
Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana
 
Hey Houndawg,

Read a little farther into my message and you'll see that I've field trained dogs, too. WITHOUT an electronic collar.

If the early training is done correctly, the late training won't be a problem.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Closest to a remote trainer I've come is me standing on a stepladder giving handsignals to a bowser.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I used to have my dog pull me with the tightest choke I could put on her. She would be gasping for air, and still not putting together the cause and effect. I was using the collar the wrong way. Instead of applying gradual and continuous choke on the dog, you give a sharp jerk coupled with a verbal command, and that works quite well.
Dogs, like people each have their problems, and some dogs just weren't meant for extreme obiedience. I guess that most hunting dogs are just using properly channeled and exaggerated natural instincts that were selectively bred to manifest themselves in a particular breed.
I will say this: training a dog is a lot easier than training a kid, and in your entire life, you'll NEVER find another beast or human that will compare to the loyalty and love of your dog. So treat them kindly, as you will always regret not being kinder to them when they die. A great saying I heard is: "God, let me become the person that my dog thinks I am". Love 'em for what they are!
 
Well, now that this topic has run a little afield, I guess I'd better sound off. :)

1. Thanks for the replies and the info. I haven't digested all of it as of yet, but I can tell from skimming that theres a great deal of good content.

2. Mike Irwin: no, you're point of view doesn't make me angry, we just disagree :) My personal POV is that the remote collar we discuss is a tool, and used properly it can be a great benefit, and if misused it can be a great harm- kind of like corporal punishment for your kids (which you may or may not use). Certainly I have no intention of 'frying the pooch' at seemingly random intervals. I'm not a dog trainer by any means, but I do know a bit about training in general.

3. Funny how 'radio dog collar' instantly got translated to 'shock collar.' I was of the opinion that there are non-shock varieties out there. I would prefer a non-shock variety, or at least one with a 'warning' stimulus that you could trigger prior to administering a punishment stimulus (be that a shock or an intense vibration/whatever).

4. For the dog-trainers out there: How I anticipated using this was to extinguish bad behaviours, ie, if the dog jumps up on someone they get the stimulus. I was not planning on using this to do too much else ("come here! I said come here! *push button* why won't that dog come here?!?!?!?"- that seems rather counterproductive ;) like the guy who bellows 'COME' at his dog for 5 minutes, and when he finally does come, he gets walloped. Oh yeah. great training there). My question is this: if I use the collar with a warning stimulus to halt bad behaviour, can that same stimulus also be used to encourage the dog to attend to commands, or will that just confuse the dog?
My first instict is to say it would lead to confusion, which natually violates the principles of training.

5. I think this dog did indeed get a bad start in life. She was an older puppy at the pound, had been 'partly trained' according to them. My bet? Some guy who didn't know how to train got this firecracker of a dog, did a half-arsed job of training her, got fed up, and dropped her off at the pound. She was REALLY REALLY out of control when we got her, but she pretty quickly grasped obediance training when she was isolated from distractions in the environment. We anticipated that getting her out more often would lead to better behavior in public (basically what was described above), and to a certain extent it has. But we seem to have reached a plateau, and no amount of (admittedly amateur) training on my part has gotten her over it. The crux is this: when she is paying attention she follows commands, but when distracted she doesn't pay attention. No amount of 'flooding' seems to break this. So I'm looking for a no-nonsense way of curbing her when she does something bad, and a way to grab her attention when she is lost in the fog.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Add dog training to the list of things that Daddy should have told you not to dicuss with people,(religion and politics).I can only draw from my own experience. I am no expert by any means and still have something to learn.

One can use a remote trainer that electricaly stimulates a dog, to teach the recall (come). If used properly (as an incentive) it works very well. After teaching the animal to come conventionaly, using a long lead and slip collar (choke chain), use a variable intensity remote training collar with constant stimulation. Turn the control to a level that is merely a nuisance to the dog. While the dog is at end of the long lead say "come" while pushing and holding the button of the remote. As soon as the dog starts returning to the trainer, the button is released. The dog soon learns to limit the stimuli, thus racing back to the trainer. After the dog starts to obey consistantly the stimulation only needs to be used as a reminder once in a while. It dosen't work on all dogs all the time. Nothing is written in stone either. I am a conventional trainer. and didn't use a remote training collar for years. But I'm really glad that I have a training device at my disposal that will help if needed. The key is to use as little stimulation as possible. To train the dog to come, a low level is used. To train the dog to stop life threatening behaviors, like chasing cars or killing chickens, a heavier dose of Ben Frankiln's friend is what is called for. When breaking bad behavior, the trainer must remember, the dog is doing this stuff because he likes to do it. The trainer must make bad behavior unplesant for the animal before he will stop. Oh another thing, when using the collar to break bad behavior, avoid giving the dog a command like NO or STOP, the trainer dosen't want the dog to associate the trainer with the correction. If no verbal command is used the animal will think that whatever he is doing is what is correcting him. For instance, the trainer whants to correct the dog for dumping over the trash and eating. Every time the dog gets near the can he gets a shock. The dog thinks the trash can is correcting him, and will soon start avoiding the trash like the plague. The trainer must remember that consistancy is one of the key fundamentals to dog training. He must correct the dog every time he "gets near the trash can".

Like everything else in life, every one has a better way of doing things. I'm open to any thing that will make life easier. I'm not stuck on one method of training so much as to never use another method sometime. One of my Motto's is, and I have a lot of them, "Treat your dog like a person, and he will treat you like a dog".

Arrell
 
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