Dog Training Issues

C

Coronach

New member
I have a lovely dog that is, unfortunately, quite psychotic. She is a pound puppy through and through, and my wife and I have determined her to be either a Dalmatian/Beagle mix, or the offspring of a crackhead breeding with a crystal-meth addict- we're not really sure which.

She is now 3, and has **FINALLY** reached that age where she is not absolutely wired 24-7, and is calm when there is nothing exciting happening. We have trained her in all the usual things...sit, stay, come, down, shhhh! (an important one!), etc etc etc. When there is nothing thrilling going on around her, she follows commands pretty darned well. However, add one new person or (heaven forbid) a strange dog, and 3 years of positive reinforcement and occasional stern punishment go straight out the window in favor of absolute insanity.

Naturally, when strangers are around you want your dog to be on its best behavior...and also you don't want to revert to anything that some animal rights boob would think might possibly cause discomfort or low self esteem to the pooch.

Enter that lovely invention, the radio dog collar. I want one. The question is, which one? And where to buy it?

Anyone have practical experience with these things? Have a fave model? Know a good internet source? Any advice on use/features?

Thanks in advance!

Mike

PS I'm also posting this to TFL's sister-site, Bladeforums.com



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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
train it in strange places ie not at home and with other people around and other dogs like a park start early.
 
have you tried using a throw chain and using the command out! My female pit is extremly ADHD and in just one throw she learned...now all I have to do is rattle the chain and she settles down immediatly. Oh yea if you try this do it with love and dont let the animal see you chuck that chain. I have used the shock collars before and find they are only usefull on retrivers when they are out of correction range...although they work very well. If you go the shock collar route you will end up paying $250-300 for a entry level collar and remote.
 
Radio dog collar? :confused:

Are you talking about one of those shock collars?

If ANYONE ever tried to put one of those *#$_(&%^_)#)(*%^ torture devices on one of my dogs, he/she/it would very likely be dodging lead.

If you decide to get one, and I SINCERELY hope that you don't, I suggest that YOU wear it for a couple of days to see how much you like it.

I suggest getting in touch with a local police canine dog handler and talk this problem over with him.

This CAN be trained around through hypersocialization and a lot of work, but you should NOT subject your pet to one of these devices.

Would you resort to beating your dog? If not, why resort to shocking it?

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I'm with Mike on this one. A shock coller is a very cruel instrument indeed. The salesman will even shock himself with it and allow you to do the same to prove that it is a benevolent little "training device". Keep in mind that a dog's body has a much higher salt content than your own. The shock you barely feel is going to cause him excruciating pain. The other problem is that unless you are a professional, you will end up misusing the collar and that can be a horrible thing. I have no qualms with striking a dog, but I would NEVER EVER use a shock collar. I have spent many weekends helping a good friend train narcotics dogs. He doesn't do the obedience gigs, so I get to work with them on that. There are always going to be small problems, and you can almost always sit down and think it through to find a solution. Someone in your community is a very good dog person. Seek him/her out, and find advice. If you've been able to master the basic commands you have already got 75% of your problem licked. The dog must really be in tune to you though. That is what the daily walk is for.
 
I've used a shock collar for around 5 years now for training coonhounds. Anybody who says it's cruel doesn't know what they are talking about. Dogs have much thicker skin than humans and also have fur to help insulate. Proper use of the collar is essential to the training process. You have to concentrate on one problem at a time. Use the lowest and shortest setting first. Most of the time that will work and will do nothing to the dog but surprise the hell out of him. Tri-Tronics puts out some very good informational brochures that will explain proper use. Tri-Tronics is the most reliable brand on the market.
 
I'm a former Police K-9 trainer, now have an obedience training business. Been training dogs for 13 years. The best remote training collars made are from Tri-Tronics, a company out of AZ. I have a remote collar that I ocassionaly use in training. It won't work for what you have in mind, however. It'll most likely make the problem worse, or develop a different problem altogether. Remote collars are no substitute for conventional training, but they do have their uses. Breaking life threatening behaviors comes immediately to mind. It's much better to use a shock as a deterent to chasing cars, than to allow the animal to continue to chase them and eventually get struck. Thus ruining everybody's day. I'm not abusive by any means, if I was I would'nt stay in business very long. People love their dogs, and in the dog community word travels fast. Coronach, saturation training is the method you should use. Take the animal to the distraction and train it until it responds appropriately. It may take several sessions. Keep the sessions short and animated, lots of praise for good behavior. Avoid treats during training, this creates inconsistent responses in the long run. Don't get agitated if the dog dosen't respond immediately. Patience, Presentation,Consistency and Repitition are the fundamentals of dog training. Keep in mind that you may never be able to solve this problem, the dog obviously has a negative history. He probably has a mental deficency also. Good luck my friend.
Arrell
 
Your problem may be all the beagel mixed in with your pup :) They are one of the hardest dogs to train(Dalmations are no breeze). Collars are a choice you have to make but, they do make one that just vibrates. It doesn't hurt the dog but, it annoys the hell out of them. I used one on my Lab and he is retrieving to hand pretty good now. Since we are on the subject of dogs, maybe someone can help me.

I have a one year old Chocolate Lab male and a 2 year old Springer Spainel female. Everytime my Springer squats to do her business, my Lab runs over and pees on her. My wife has about had it and if I can't figure out what the deal is, she says I have to get rid of him(they are both house dogs). Leaving him outside is not an option. I live in North Dakota and it gets cold here even this time of year. Please help me save my dog...Freezin1

[This message has been edited by freezin1 (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
Those of you that condemn the training collar need to remember that it is an peice of equipment (like your gun) and the "torture" comes from the operator. I have used one as part of my bird-dogs' training and all the mine are still healthy and happy. I would add Innotek to Tri-tronics as a recommended brand.

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WFM
Life NRA, LLEA, Quail Unlimited,Ducks Unlimited
 
You may be fighting a loosing battle. Most heinz 57's are pretty smart. Buttttttttttt my wife had an Afgan Hound when she was a kid (it died early). For her 40th I found one for you. He has a brain smaller than a snow pea. What his brain tells him is "see it, run it down"! It comes from a long line of hunters who were bred to chase down big animals. If he sees a bird a mile away and focuses on it he sees nothing in between (like cars, big trucks, barb wire etc. He's too stupid to show fear and bonds with the family unit. With hair he looks like a monster. If he's in the house and even people he's been around come over we know we have to get to him first or else. Once the person is there for a while and he knows we're ok with them, they become part of the family. With other dogs he's pretty docile but throw a piece of meat out and I swear the thing would attack a Grizzly. I'm not joking. I dare anyone to try and take meat away from this dog. Our pound puppy on the other hand appears to be part collie and snauzer(?)and a fast learner. My point in all this it sounds like you have a dog that has massive hearding instincts like a blue heeler. These are excitable dogs by nature and you probably won't be able to train all of the instincts away. Good luck!
 
My advice is a choke chain and a log leash. This problem is an indication that the training he has received so far has not burned in. I suggest that you just continue to work on him the way you have been but do it more often. Also slowly work in the distractions. Do not move up to the next distraction until he will do what you want with the current. Progress slowly.

Electric collars can be a good alternative if used properly. However extreme caution should be used at all times. I have two labs that I'm training for the field. Have an Innotek with two collars. So I can control both dogs at the same time. Before I ever put it on my dogs, I put it on myself. It has seven settings. low to high. It does not get painful until about the 6th setting. So far I have never had to go over the 4th setting and that was to break them of killing our chickens.

freezin1:

For your problem I would suggest a super soaker. Blast the little bugger with it every time he is doing the bad thing. He'll get the point after a while. (unless he is like my female lab who loves to run through the sprinkler) then you might try the choke chain with a long leash. Give a firm pull to break the habit. I don't know why, but it is a trait of male Labs (others?) to want to mark their property.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Ya'll have it easy. Ever try to house train a timber wolf? Upon returing from last weekends gun show we discovered that among other acts of destruction ours had eaten my recliner. :rolleyes:
She's young, six months, and will out grow a lot of it. We are in the process enrolling her in a local training class.

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Gunslinger
 
Hey Hounddawg,

I'm glad you THINK you know what your dogs are feeling. No one, not even your vet, can tell you how those dogs perceive or respond to an electrical shock.

It is you, sir, who don't know what you're talking about when you say that you can.

W.F -- Yes, a shock collar is a piece of equipment, just like a gun. Do you shoot your dogs for effect, too?

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I agree with Arrell 100% on this one. There are certain circumstances where a shock collar makes sense. For this particular problem I agree that it could actually make things worse. Follow Arrell's advice on saturation training. Persistence and consistency are key...

Mike, I respect your opinion on shock collars. However, I've seen patrol, drug, schutzhund, and pet dogs trained with shock collars in some parts of their training for one reason or another. I have never seen a dog, when the collar was used properly, that was adversely affected. Actually, all of them were very happy, well-socialized dogs. I personally do not see the proper use of the collar inhumane. It kind of like the question of spanking your kids...

Just my $.02

AKrob

[This message has been edited by AKrob (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
That's the rub, Akrob... Expecting someone to immediately be able to use a shock collar properly and safely, AND be able to properly diagnose any problems that might occur with it.

All the while using it on what literally constitutes a member of your family.

I ADAMANTLY disagree, and I'm sorry if this makes you mad, Coronach, but shock collars are a crutch for dog owners who are unwilling to expend the time and effort that is required to properly train and socialize a dog. You're halfway there, why give up now and go for the worst of all possible solutions?

I've been training dogs for over 20 years, and I've NEVER had to resort to a shock collar, nor would I, and I have truly been faced with some hounds from hell.

Primarily, to break this habit, the dog needs to be socialized, and when it engages in one of these "romps," it's attention needs to be gotten, quickly.

A large can filled with pebbles, a whistle, a bell, even an air horn (as long as you don't stick it in the dog's ear), all can serve to break through the romp mode and get the dog's attention back to the matter at hand, which is behaving.

Is it simple? No. Is it easy? No. Does it take time? Yes. Is it worth it? Most definitely.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited June 21, 2000).]
 
First, it's probably too late. Love her as she is. Dogs must be socialized with other dogs and people thoroughly before 16 weeks, and certainly before 24 weeks old.

Regarding collars which might help, there are the shock ones and the ones that release citronella which is unpleasant to dogs. Many think the shock collars are inhumane, but at low voltage, I'm not convinced they're inhumane for a bad enough problem. Not sure about the effectiveness of the citronella collars, but they are more humane, and there are so many models for sale, I would think they have some effect. If you do use the collars, you must follow the instructions to the letter, gradually getting the dog used to the collar, and leave it on, because if you only put it on when company is over, the dog will learn to be "good" whenever the collar is on, but not when it's off; hence you can not ever rid yourself of the collar altogether. But if the collar is on continuously during the training period as the instructions tell you, then the dog learns to not bark, etc. at all times - he doesn't associate the negative consequences with the collar being on; rather with the "bad" behavior. Then at some point you can take the collar off for good. I would probably go with the citronella ones because the shock ones are unreliable since they rely on an electrical connection which is interfered with by the dog's hair.

Check here:
http://www.rcsteele.com/

or here
http://www.neserum.com/
 
I have two JINDO dogs.
Jindo's can only be trained by the master and even then it's a VERY difficult job. Legend has it that these dogs are half Asian wolf.
I've not been able to teach mine much but then I don't care because they are pets (read my friends) and I love them. The only tools that I have used is a choke chain and leash and the soaker. They are almost untrainable but as I said.....so what. ;)

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
Futo,

it is NEVER too late to socialize or train a dog. Yes, it gets harder as the dog gets older. The owner has to expect to put a lot of work into the situation.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike-
As a training tool, no I would not shoot a dog, although it was wide-spread with brid-dogs before the development of the training collar. My point is that any tool can be mis-used (I can kill a dog with a "choke-collar etc.) it depends on the INDIVIDUAL pushing the buttons. I don't have near the experience you have training dogs but I have seen both the proper and improper use of the collar and it will be part of my equipment. This does not mean that that I think everyone should it, you don't, that's fine by me


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WFM
Life NRA, LLEA, Quail Unlimited,Ducks Unlimited
 
W.F.,

Sorry, but a "choke" collar (more properly known as a flexible training collar) gives MUCH more tactile response to the user than simply pushing a button and depending on an electronic device to function correctly.

I once also severely dressed a person down in one of my classes when I was teaching because he used the "choke" collar to choke his dog.

I'm no big fan of "choke" collars. I GREATLY prefering Gentle Leaders, and recommend to anyone with a puppy/dog that they use it for training.

When used correctly, the Gentle Leader provides the dog with a MUCH more direct cause/effect example, because the dog, by pulling ahead, moving away, or falling behind the handler, causes the lead to tighten up, which causes the dog's head to be pulled down via the over-muzzle strap. The more the dog pulls away, the more the muzzle is pulled down.

I've trained SEVERE pullers, dogs that will gladly choke themselves on a "choke" collar, to quit pulling using the Gentle Leader. A few days is normally all it takes.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
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