Dog assault

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huchahuchax

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I was taking my dogs out for a walk on the lawn of the apartment building I live in today. While out there, I heard one of the apartment doors open and someone start yelling as if they were trying to control a dog. I decided to keep cool and not freak out, hoping the oncoming dog was a cockerspaniel or some other breed - no such luck; it was a pitbull. The dog charged, and even though I usually carry Mace, it charged so fast that I could not get to it. I had no choice but to retreat and drag my dogs out of the way as the oncoming dog tried to attack. The owner showed up immediately and was able to beat his dog into submission. In the end no one got hurt, and even though the owner of the dog was cool about the situation, I had to report it to the landlord. Just the same, the moral of the story is never assume it is just a cockerspaniel charging you and get your Mace (or something more powerful) out as soon as you hear the indications of a dog charging.
 
Those pit bulls can be good dogs. The problem is some turn. I keep my firearms under control because they can be deadly. I won't own a dog that I can't control. I take my dogs to a "dog park" in the seattle area on occasion. those occasions have grown less frequent since I've seen younger folks bringing their pit bulls to show off how tough the dogs are. I've seen them (more than once now) let their dog attack while grinning about it. I have a friend who saw a dog get killed a few months ago. I met a woman with a Jack Russell Terrier that is now strapped into a custom cart with wheels because he lost hir back legs to a pit in the same park. Sometimes I think they should illegalize them just to protect us from stupid people that don't handle them properly.
 
Bad pit bull owners...

Since I have been around large-breed dogs most of my life, and am one of those people that even unfriendly dogs tend to like (I get this from both parents... animals just love them), I tend to be the guy who breaks up most of the dogfights at the dogparks I take my Catahoula to in Florida.

It always amazes me how many owners cannot control their dogs, especially boxers and pits.

That said, I like the vast majority of boxers and pits. Even the unruly ones are usually not mean, per se, just hyper.

However, every so often, you get the very bad combination of unskilled or stupid owner, and mean dog.

The most interesting fight I had to break up was in two stages. First, I had to separate two pitbulls, one that was basically a sweetie, and the other that kept charging it and biting until a fight broke out. Second, I had to separate the owners, when the owner of the aggressor dog - instead of removing his dog from the park - chose instead to mouth off at the other dog's owner.

It was interesting how much less tough he thought he was, after I corraled his dog, and then pulled the other guy off him after letting him take a good punch to the jaw. The guy was all bluff and posturing, which his dog had probably figured out a long time ago.

He doesn't come to our park anymore. We (a LOT of the other dog owners) let him know he is not welcome, since he not only can't control his animal, but doesn't even seem to try.

Now, to make this topic more pertinent to the forum...

At what point would you consider drawing a weapon, in dealing with a large, aggressive dog? What threat indicators would you consider to be triggers?

Cheers,

M
 
About six months ago, I owned a female black lab/mutt mix. She was about 2, but not very large, about 20" tall. I would take her on walks around my neighborhood frequently.

I had some neighbors who lived across the street two houses down who got a great dane: A middle-aged woman and her two kids. I'd seen them out walking this dog before (by the way this great dane is full grown).

One day, after returning from a walk with mine, I was at the front porch when I looked across the street and saw the Great Dane coming out of the front door followed by the younger son (maybe 7 or 8 years old). He was on a leash but the dog was easily twice the size of the boy. The dog took one look over our way and began barking wildly and pulling at the leash. It didn't take two seconds before the dog yanked his leash from the boy and began running full spped for my dog, barking and snarling. The kid pointed and yelled at me, "Mister! Get your dog!" The distance from his front porch to mine was around 50 yards, so I had 4-5 seconds to react. My dog's leash was tied to the front porch rail, and I knew I didn't have enough time to grab her and make it inside. I quickly sized up the dane and jumped in front of my dog, made eye contact with the dane, and then realized this thing was as big as me, and looked like it might seriously injure me. I'm not a big guy (5'10", 150lbs), so at the last second, I moved out of the way and went for a large stick laying in the yard, ready to defend. It pounced my lab and snapped at her, but upon my yelling and kicking, it ran back across the street and back into the neighbor's house. The boy just looked at me from across the street, halk expecting me to scream at him i guess. I just grabbed my dog, who was whimpering, and went inside.

About two minutes later, the boy and his mother knocked on my door, and asked if my dog was okay. I told them she was shaken, but fine, and lectured the mother about having her small son walk a giant, potentially dangerous dog alone. SHe told me that they had recently adopted the dog, and had it enrolled in obediance school becuase it used to be a fighting dog:eek:. They told me that in the future, they would walk the dog only when no other dogs were outside. That's when I told them that I carried a firearm for defense, and if the dog ever attacked me or my family (i had a 6 month old son at the time), i would not hesitate to shoot it.

In my opinion, use your judgment when defending another dog, but don't hesitate when children or other people are at risk. my two cents.
 
i can say from experience, that its not usually the dog who is bad ive owned pits all my life, and IMO they are a one of the sweetest most living dogs on the planet, HOWEVER, that is VERY dependent on the owner and how they are raised, but that also goes for any dog, not just pits. I will say that pits do have a natural aggression towards other dogs, but with the proper training, and upbringing, they can be broken of it, and not all pits are born with it too.

A few years ago i was out walking a Jack Russell we had at the time, that after this incident i would have trusted my life with. our neighbor across the street had 2 pure bred golden retrievers that he bred for dog fighting, and one of em got out as i was coming outside and bolted straight for me. right when the 175+ pound dog leaped up to pounce on me, my little 20 something pound JR jumped up and had him by the neck, pinned on the ground.(it happened so quick there really wasn't anything i could do) both dogs were fine, but it just goes to show that its really not the dogs, its the owner in 99% of the cases, who turns the dog mean.
 
I personally own two Greyhounds, as well as fostering two other Greys all the time. Walking isn't as bad as one would think, with well mannered dogs like mine, I can walk them all on one arm with no trouble whatsoever.
On our walk, we are always forced to pass by a house that has 2 hateful dobermans chained to a telephone pole ( I normally love Dobies...but not these. these are both very nasty dogs, with nasty owners). I always worry about these dogs getting loose one day and coming at us.

Sure enough, one day we walk passed the house and neither dog is where they normally are. I start looking around, and immediately see the two dogs, both dragging 10 feet or so of chain, barking madly and coming right towards us.
I was unfortunately unarmed, except for a pocket knife, so I did all that I could in the few seconds I had, and positioned myself in between my greys and the dobies. I pulled my knife quickly and began to yell at them, but they kept coming at a quick pace. I was sure that I was about to get seriously hurt. I only had a pocket knife to defend me, and one arm was behind my back controlling four 80 pound dogs (who were all cowering behind me, greys are whimps. ).
When the two dobies did finally get at a close distance, I managed to place one good, hard, kick right into the face of the lead dog. I kicked the dog hard enough until I though I might have broken my big toe.
Thankfully, that was all it took for those two to decide they'd had enough, and they turned and ran off. If they would have decided to keep at it, I am positive that I would have been very hurt.

I've been approached by mad dogs before, but nothing like that.
If I would have been carrying at that time, I would have most definitely shot both of those dogs without hesitation. My dogs, and my personal wellbeing, is more important to me than anyone else's pets.Especially if those people cannot contain their animals properly.
After that I hurried back home and called animal control. Neither dog had any identification on, and I never saw the two animals again, so I assume that animal control nabbed them and the owners didn't bother looking to get them back.
 
Those pit bulls can be good dogs. The problem is some turn.
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Most pitbulls when left to it's own devices will instinctively attack another dog that it does not know. Pittbulls can very often be completely placid around humans, but put another canine in front of it and you will see a steam roller with fangs like you have never seen before. They were breed (and still are in certain circles) to be that way.
 
Dogs can be a curious lot. My friend had 2 pits that he had raised since they were puppies. They were litter mates...brother and sister. Great dogs for years with absolutely no problems. Then one day, he gets a phone call from his neighbor wondering when he is going to receive compensation for the cow that my friends 2 pits just took down and were consuming. My buddy drives out into the field and can see his 2 dogs covered in cows blood, one still sitting inside the cow. Although greatly sadden and shook up, he felt he had no choice but to take out his 30.06 and put his dogs down. Before shooting them, my friend first got into the bed of his truck and as he did so, the male began to growl at him...something neither dog had ever done.
 
I own 2 large dogs, a brindle pitbull boxer mix and a yellow lab, both over 85lbs. they are both hyper but NEVER mean, i have always had big dogs and aggressive dogs. I can't stand it when people are so uninformed about pitbulls that they assume they "just turn", pitbulls are as sweet if not sweeter than many other breeds of dog, and they are just as easy to make into mean dogs, as say a german shepard, or rotweiler (i've owned a few of both), when i take my pitbull to the park people are always amazed at how nice he is to my 7 year old little brother (loves to kiss his face and neck). It's not the dog- it's the owner. that being said, i have been charged at by quite a few dogs, on most occasion they come running and when they see me walk toward them agressivily and bark STOP! or NO!, they quickly stop and turn, one two occasions that did'nt work, I had a mastif (about 220lbs) charge and jump on me, but having been here before, I flipped him on his back and drug him in circles with his hind legs until the owner cuaght up to his dog ( he was both amazed at what i was doing and a little miffed):), but i walked away from that with only a few minor scratches. If there is ever more than one dog charging, then i'll pull my weapon.
 
It always amazes me how many owners cannot control their dogs, especially boxers and pits.
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This is kind of off topic, but I felt compelled to respond to this.
I've had boxers most of my life.
You can't possibly mean they are aggressive and you've had to break up fights involving them.
Every boxer I have ever encountered has had the exact same temperament. They are possibly hard to control due to their excitability. When they come across a new person or dog they usually jump, wiggle and slobber.
I have NEVER met an aggressive one or even heard of one biting someone.
Now that I think about, it boxers are probably one of the only breeds for which I've never seen aggressive or bullying type behavior from at the dog park or on the street - including little dogs.

Pit bulls on the other hand are scary. You don't see alot of them at our dog parks, but when you do, you can feel everyone watching them out the corner of their eyes. I don't think it's just because the media tells us they're dangerous, I think it's because they've earned themselves a nasty reputation. Obviously any med - lg dog can inflict serious damage, but if you get attacked by a pit you're in trouble! It's exactly what they have been bred for.
I've only had 4 dicey encounters with dogs that I can think of and three of the 4 were pitbulls (the other was a dalmatian).

In response to the thread topic
The main reason I carry if we go on a walk is dogs. If I'm aware of a dog that's loose, I'm ready to act. If a dog is charging, It's not getting within 10 ft without some new holes. If it keeps coming It's going to get tackled and killed with a pocket knife or with my bare hands. We've got two kids (5 and 3), and theres no way I'm going to let some dog bite one of them.
 
Not sure if one can legally shoot to defend one's dog...

.... but then again, I always put myself between my dog and any perceived threat. I'm pretty sure I am legally ok, shooting to defend myself.

However, with certain exceptions (trained attack dogs, fight-bred pits, that sort of thing - and you can usually tell by the way they carry themselves), I am pretty confident in my ability to deal with the majority of dogs out there with bare hands, if necessary, as I've had a lot of practice in doing that.

One trick I've learned, for dogpark applications: Owners don't get upset that you are man-handling their dog, if you can pin it in such a way that you can also pat it. That technique has avoided more arguments... Then again, I don't detain the dog out of anger, and I like dogs, so it's fairly obvious that I am not being mean to their dog.

The majority of owners have thanked me for keeping their dogs from doing any harm.

In dealing with most dogs, in my experience, attitude is everything. Intercept them before they actually get to commence a potential attack, and have an attitude of "Don't start anything you don't want me to finish." If you have to grab them, grab them NOW and don't hesitate. Hesitation gives an appearance of weakness, and invites aggression. Nothing makes dogfight situations worse than a panicking, shrieking owner tentatively grabbing for a dog, and nothing is more likely to result in getting bitten.

Also, in my experience, the nape of the neck is the single best point for a grab. If the dog is light enough, you can take him right off the ground, and it's very hard for him to bite. If the dog is too heavy to hoist, planting your weight through your hand into the back of the neck can pin most of them. Additionally, since mother dogs grab or pin naughty pups that way, it's a major psychological blow to the dog, and will get his attention.

A single, firm "NO" beats a bunch of uncontrolled yelling nearly every time.

The largest dog I've had to pin down so far was an English Mastiff. The fight wasn't his fault, as the 110lb boxer he had in his mouth had started the hostilities, but he wasn't letting go.... Lucky for me the Mastiff wasn't really aggressive. Had him in a modified half-Nelson, which worked until his owner could intervene, but it wasn't the most comfortable feeling... one of those "Tiger by the Tail" sensations.

Point is, attitude is almost everything. Positioning and assertiveness are huge.

Cheers,

M
 
One of the main reasons I'm getting my CCW here is so that when I walk my dog I have protection for myself and my dog. Right now I carry a knife with me to protect my dog. He's a "tweenie" Dachshund (Weiner Dog) and only weighs 14 pounds. He would be lunch meat to just about any other dog.

Given that he's like my child, I would have no compunction about shooting an attacking dog that came at me or my dog. This is especially true with a pitbull. I don't like the idea of having to get into close combat with a large, attacking dog like a pit, dobermann, shepard, etc. with a knife.

Your story is one that haunts me when I walk my dog, especially given some of the mean dogs I see around my neighborhood.

As to laws that protect your animals, in California at least, dogs are property. You have a right to defend them like any other property. That being said, if a snarling pitbull attacks you and you shoot it, the most you could be on the hook for is the cost of the dog. We've debated whether you could shoot a person threatening to release a pitbull on you at my office. As a general rule, here in CA, you can't use deadly force to protect property alone, so I don't think you could shoot someone say kicking your dog. I guess the gist is this: dogs are property and are treated so by the law.
 
It was made very clear to me during my CC training class that you cannot draw and fire on a dog attacking one of your own pets as they are considered property, and you can't shoot to defend property. Something about public discharge of a weapon as well.

All bets are off if they come after me though. I just have to make absolutely sure the bullet doesn't go somewhere it's not intended.
 
We've debated whether you could shoot a person threatening to release a pitbull on you at my office.
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If you shot the guy, wouldn't the dog get released? Might be better off concentrating on the dog.

The fight wasn't his fault, as the 110lb boxer he had in his mouth had started the hostilities,
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Again, I feel I need to come to the defense of boxers.
Are you sure you know what a boxer is (aggressive, 110 lbs??)?
 
My understanding of pits is that aggressiveness is in their blood and they will become agressive as they get older no matter how sweet they were as a pup. This coming from a long time pit owner friend of mine who has had pits most of his life. When they reach a certain age...you may or may not be able to control them even if you're good with dogs. He put one of his older pits down because he didnt want to take the risk.

He's no dog wisperer but has had pits so long that I tend to take his word for it...
 
Dogs and size

Daryl,

Most boxers are significantly smaller, and are more playful than aggressive.

Most Dobermans weigh in the neighborhood of 60lbs, too.

A friend of mine has a mother who breeds oversized Dobies. He had a beautiful red male that weighs 95lbs, yet won at dog shows in Seattle because even though he was oversized, he was perfectly proportional.

There are at least three boxer owners I know in central Florida who have oversized boxers, from 100 to 110 pounds. One of the latest fads, it seems, is breeding for size. One of the guys who has an oversize boxer has taught the dog to leap up onto his chest to be caught like a lapdog. The guy is slightly bigger than me, and thinks it's funny. I've had the dog leap up on me that way, too, and I thought it was kind of funny, but I'm a 220 pounder myself. Still, it was a pretty hard impact.

I've seen a lot of oversize dogs of different breeds, lately, ranging from 130lb German Shepherds to 110lb Boxers to 120lb Chocolate Labs. I am not saying this is normal, but it is becoming a lot less uncommon. I don't know why breeders are doing this, and I don't know if there any advantages to breeding the dogs larger, but it doesn't change the fact that there are some monsters out there.

As far as whether I know boxers, I've had at least half a dozen friends who have owned them. My Rott/Shepherd's two best doggie buddies were a boxer and a pug, of all things. Boxers are, for the most part, big, slobbery babies. After Great Danes, they are also the second most common breed to run into you at the dog park, because both breeds tend to charge in one direction, while looking over their shoulders in another direction, typically at the dogs with whom they are playing. They run into people, signposts, picnic tables, etc. I tend to refer to them as "big, goofy dogs." I like them quite a bit. My next large dog may very well be a boxer, and I'd be surprised if it were to weigh more than 75lbs.

So, Daryl, you don't need to defend boxers from me. I am very fond of them.

But, yes, this was a 110lb, aggressive boxer. He was a real jerk. He kept charging the Mastiff, then snapping at his flanks and retreating. It may have been more play than attack, and probably was, but it was also obviously upsetting the mastiff, and the boxer's owners just laughed it off... until the mastiff bit the boxer on the back, from 90 degrees off, to left and right of the spine... picked him off the ground, then slammed him down on his side and pinned him.

At that point, the boxer's owners started yelling at the lady who owned the mastiff. Idiots.... I've been told that this is a mastiff trait, that they were bred to grab poachers and pin them down, but I don't know if that's true. In any case, this mastiff had the boxer pinned quite well. He wasn't really trying to hurt the boxer, though, because his teeth only penetrated enough to let him hold on.

To get him to let go, though, I had to wrap an arm around his neck from behind, climb on his back, brace my other forearm on top of his head (to be in position to clamp down if he tried to turn around on me) and hold him in place while talking him down.

The boxer's owners, still not acting very intelligently, grabbed their dog and tore him loose, which caused some tooth tears in the skin around his back. Then they wanted to call the cops, but a lot of witnesses flat out told them that they'd testify on behalf of the mastiff owner.

Some owners are idiots. When they own big, strong dogs, those idiot owners are dangerous.

Cheers,

M
 
Somebody kicking your dog

Can you shoot them for that? Probably not.

However, if somebody kicks my dog, I can and will certainly stop them from doing so using non-lethal means. My dog is 13, and kicking him is likely to really hurt him, so there's no way I'll allow it.

A kick to the balls leaps to mind... as do a chin grab and takedown, a chicken wing, or any number of painful but not necessarily lethal measures that I have available.

Not being justified to shoot is not the same as not being justified to act.

Am I worried about the guy who kicked my dog then pulling a weapon? Well, no, I have one as well... But it won't come into play unless the attacker really decides to be stupid.

Note: this does not apply to the scenario of the little old lady who is terrified of dogs and is trying to shoo mine away from her, etc. I'm talking about people who get their rocks off by abusing animals.
 
My wife and I have been importing and competing (Schutzhund, French Ring--now Ringsport) with German Shepherds, Dobermans and Rottweilers for 28 years. A few things I've picked up during those years--

1. Dogs don't turn on people. People turn on dogs.

Dogs are born with a fairly specific temperament. It's either to work (ala German Shepherds, Dobermans, Belgian Malinois, etc), to retrieve game (Labs, Retrievers, Pointers, etc), to herd (Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, etc), to be earth dogs/varmint hunters (most terriers--including "pitbulls), or be useless (most toy breeds who are simply pets/companions).

When you try to alter that temperament via bad environment and "training" to the extreme that it goes against all instincts within the dog, you will confuse the dog. If the dog's temperament is strong enough, the dog will resort to whatever means necessary to ensure its own well-being and survival.

Dogs going wild/feral are a good example. You almost always see them end up in a pack since dogs are social by genetic nature.

Bulldogs were--and are--bred to be "game dogs." By breeding, they should NEVER be people aggressive. That will get them shot on the spot at a (organized) dog fight.

Personally, I'd rather see the stupidass OWNER of such dogs they breed and raise for dog fighting get shot on the spot.

2. People misidentify breeds all the time.

3. Dogs that live on chains are inheritently more aggressive and likely to charge/attack if the chain breaks or they suddenly find themselves free. More and more municipalities are passing laws making it a crime to keep dogs chained up.

4. It's not as easy to shoot a charging dog as some of you might think. Bear in mind you're responsible for your bullets and a dog is definitely a moving target. Mace or pepper spray is a much better means of stopping a pending altercation.

5. If a dog charges at my dog, I will state under oath that I was afraid that the attacking dog was charging ME, and thus, why I took the actions that I did.

6. If you are the owner of a dog who gets loose and causes an altercation, take responsibility. Apologize sincerely and take care of whatever damage your dog caused. It's the right thing to do.

Jeff
 
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