Does this want to make you kill, pick up arms or what??

F

Frank Haertlein

Moderator
I found this on another BBS and thought you guys might like to say a few words as to the validity of this story.............

>Why would the B.A.T.F. treat people this way?
>
>This is a true story you will find hard to believe that we live in the
>United States!
>Here in Arkansas we have a small community rifle range South West of Little
>Rock. I was sighting in a project rifle a nhm91 with a custom "legal" stock
>with a Russian scope. This rifle was going to be used as my coyote gun.
>Semi auto clone of a AK with just a longer barrel. It was not a pre-ban or
>even a post-ban.
>So here I am at the range and there are 3 other people (not with me)
>getting my groups the way I want when
>next thing you know someone was screaming get on the ground. I had ear
>plugs on so I thought it was the other shooters playing around with each
>other. Well I look up and then again there is this guy in a Rambo outfit
>screaming . A#$hole I said get on the ground. At this point my senses
>clicked in and I got on the ground as fast as this tired body could.
>I looked up and there was 10-12 B.A.T.F. agents all over this range. I have
>never I mean ever been in trouble with the law in my life. Matter of fact
>my brother , father, and grand pop all are retired or on the force with the
>NYPD.So I got the feeling they are looking for someone or got a tip on
>something. They checked everything or guns, ammo, took my I.D., and even
>walked up and opened the doors of my truck and went through it. They did
>not even ask if they could do this.
>I was hand cuffed told to stand up and then walked off in another
>direction. I noticed the other three were also separated and walked in
>different directions from me.I asked what was I being arrested for. They
>said they have some questions for me. I then again asked why was I hand
>cuffed. They said for there protection! I learned many years ago from my
>father that when and if in a position as this you tell the truth and be
>"Nice"!
>Guys, at this point I was scared and told the agent I did nothing wrong.
>The agent ignored me and then ask when was the last time I was arrested. I
>said I never been arrested in my life. He then asked what are the names of
>my friends. I said I don't know them I just came to shoot.
>They then asked if my"weapons" where registered?I said no because I was
>thought that in the state of Arkansas they did not have to be. They asked
>me where I got them from and questions about the ammo. I told them the
>truth about everything. Then they walked away and told me to sit on the
>ground. I was standing in mud because we had I light rain the night before.
>So I walked 3 feet to sit on the grass. He yelled Sit Down!!
>So I did.
>I don't know about you guys but I am in my mid 30's and I was trying with
>all my might not to get upset...It was hard. I have never been treated like
>this by anyone. Also reading stories about the A.T.F. manufacturing
>evidence I truly felt like I was a criminal and very scared. I watched them
>go through my rig pulling out the seats and door panels and going through
>the glove. They just through stuff on the ground. My mail, check book, and
>the leather spare seat in the back.
>I was sitting there what felt like hours ( 20 min.) when the senior agent
>came up and asked me where the "sks" was? I said I don't have a "sks". He
>then said: It will be easy on you if you tell us where it is? I told him
>again
>if I had anymore rifles you would know about it. I then asked him what's
>going on I just came out to shoot. I told him I was good guy and my father
>and brother where cops and why was I being treated like this! He walked
>away.
>I sat there for another 30 min. When I noticed they walked one of the other
>guys and put him in a car. Now at this point I had it. I could not control
>my mouth. I asked the agent for his card and I said I want the name of the
>senior agent. He just walked away and I watched him talk to the senior
>agent. Another 30 min. went buy when a agent came over and told me to stand
>up. ( hard to do with your hands behind your back ) He took off the hand
>cuffs and gave me back my I.D. and told me to leave.
>I walked over to my truck and picked up my things. I went to get my rifle
>(nhm91) and it was not on the bench. I asked the same agent about my rifle.
>He said get this" I told you to get the F%CK" out of here"! So at this
>point I was scared tired and just wanted to get the hell out of there. When
>I was driving home I went from being scared to out right pissed off! Is
>this they same country I gave four years of my life too? Is this the same
>country I pay almost 40% in taxes to every year? Guys what's going on? I
>have never in my life felt so small or helpless.
>Bill
 
Or it could be a troll. No real sources to check.

"Let's get the gun nuts all stirred up"

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
My feelings too, DC. I can't but help to wonder about the details. They seem almost too true. Almost to the point where they couldn't be made up. Wouldn't surprise me either way.
Could it be a look into our future?
 
If I were him I would have given them my name and drivers license, nothing more and nothing less. Treat the feds like an occupying army, they are in control of the situation and there is nothing you can do about it. You do have to provide identification, but you do not have to cooperate. Treat the local police with respect, but remember-they are not your friends. If "they" are treating you like you are guilty of something, say one thing, and one thing only...I'd like to speak to a lawyer. The fact that you have done nothing wrong does not mean you cannot be arrested. Granted, not likely, but it can and does happen.
I would love to say the story sounds a little fishy, but I can't.


------------------
To be or not to be-that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.

[This message has been edited by walkin' man (edited July 03, 1999).]
 
If true, the Gents have a first class case of Conspiracy against Rights, and armed robbery with the use of color. There would be a line of lawyers waiting to take the case...... on the other hand they could find out where the local ATF office is and do a little surveillance, if they see the culprits , they could follow them and document activities and locations...... Myself I'd be hard pressed not to seek some measure of justice.

Then too , the feds are just that kind of crazy to plant stories to get hotheads to identify their inclinations , say things and then use it to create a case for terrorism under the new internal threat senarios just enacted.

At some point, there must be resistance to this type of activity, for nature has its rules about the YEN-YANG and the balance of good and evil in this universe. The question is.... how long must we wait for the good to push through for the benifit of all mankind.

The question I have , is did the guys go to their local Sheriff, the highest constitutional officer in the county , and have him look into this matter?
------------------
What part of "INFRINGED" don't they understand?




[This message has been edited by Menos (edited July 03, 1999).]
 
Name, rank, and serial number.

Q: "Am I under arrest?"

A: "No, not yet."

R: "This conversation/interrogation is over."

Q: "Am I under arrest?"

A: "Yes, I want to know about..."

R: "Lawyer, now."
 
Nope, I don't believe it for alot of reasons. The one that most stands out would have to be his fathers, brothers, grandfathers advice to be "nice". 10 to 12 BATF agents would make that advise silly.

Anyone that knows anything about the law at all would simply tell him to keep his pie hole shut, and having grown up around LEO's all his life--he'd know the difference. Regardless of what you've done, or haven't done, it's really hard to be convicted, as long as you don't hang yourself. Look at O.J. Simpson (guilty).

"Nice" should be reserved to the local cop, deputy, trooper, giving you the speeding or parking ticket. Hay, they might just let you off with "a warnin'--this time".
 
Interesting story, but I ain't quoting until I get some source cites. One of the smartest ways that I've seen to discredit us has been a systematic release of completely bogus stories to get gun-owners riled up. and then have the alleged malefactors open their hands and say "When and where? To whom? We know nothing of this, and this story is false."

I'm still trying to follow up the supposed quote from Janet Reno on the supposed "60 Minutes" show in which she allegedly pretty much stated that if you're a person of any real religious belief, the Justic Dept. considers you a cultist. It would appear this story is manufactured, and spreading it will HURT us in the long run.

If anyone has the FACTS, bring them up. Otherwise, best not to muddy the waters on our end-- the other side does that enough!!!

L.P.
 
Long Path,

There was a thread about Janet Reno's comment on 60 minutes. Use the search to find it.

From the information posted, it was a bogus quote.

------------------
John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!
 
well i live in Ar., and have heard nothing of this event. that don't mean it ain't happened, but i know if it had happened to me every tv station, newspaper, and anyone else i could think of would be told. i'll have to investigate this further....

------------------
what me worry?
 
A couple of questions come to mind.
Where was the rangemaster? If this was an established range as suggested, why didn't the rangemaster speak out? I know at my local range he would have been pitching a God awful fit and calling for back-up on his radio.

Why didn't this man contact the media? I certianly would have as soon as I got home. While they aren't our friends, they love a good "government runs amuck" story. I'm positive it would have gotten attention.

Why was there no mention of contacting a lawyer or filing a lawsuit? That would have been my second phone call.

This whole story smells of a trap. Without positive proof, I ain't buying it.
 
Mr. Frank Haertlein, if you would please provide a follow-up post on this thread, it may prove positive the actions against "Bill" and the others involved. Also, what BBS did this post come from?

If there is no response from Mr. Haertlein, it may be safe to assume that his post was "planted" to induce a knee-jerk reaction.

I don't know about security on this board, DC, but is there a way to find his registration info and check him out? Has he posted on any other threads/boards?

And if you do reply Mr Haertlein, I personally appologise for questioning the motive of your post, and offer any support that you need in your situation.

[This message has been edited by BigFang (edited July 05, 1999).]
 
BigFang;
No problem. I got this post from another BBS where the the responses pretty much mirrored this one. You can find a link to it by going to this page http://home.earthlink.net/~varmints/chat.htm Look for Mike Willougbys Political BBS and somewhere in there is the discussion.

My reason for posting it is to stimulate some conversation and thought as to the possible validity of it and to provide a look into one possible future. I, personally, can see just such a thing happenning. One thing that is really curious to me is the detail in the story. Almost too much detail or intimate knowlege of the way the police operate to not be a true story. But then it wouldn't surprise me either way.
 
smells fishy to me. ak clone not post or pre ban? where's the sks? outside kali, where are they banned? some of the rest is just a little "off" for me to buy it.
granted batf has and will do things their way, there are numerous violations of civil as well as criminal law . if this did in fact happen, as stated, he has a case to make a lawyer cry for joy.

i think it's a plant.
 
Guys,

The range BATF story smells a bit fishy. I can tell you honestly that the Rights of Search and Seizure and Unlawfull Detention are violated all the time. I have seen people because they are Mexican and even ELDERLY PEOPLE with their luggage and personal effects thrown all over the side of the road. While some zealot from the INS, Customs and who knows who else, rummage through their personal belongings.

Living very near the border and having a call to conduct business on the line, unreasonable detentions and searches have become a real issue. I was stopped on the I-19 heading back from Nogalis, AZ, when I was pulled over by an "INS" road block. No problem, I go through these at least three times a month. The Border Patrol Agent looked me over, asked me a couple of seemingless harmless questions and was asked to pull my car over to the side. A plain clothed agent sallied up to me and asked "Do you have any firearms in your vehicle?" I replied truthfully that I did not. He then asked for my ID, (post Border Patrol Agent), he got that. Then he asked, "May I search your car?".
Reply: "I don't think so."
Agent: "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?"
Me:"I don't have a problem, but I haven't heard you state what your probable cause was or why you decided to search my vehicle." Agent: "I don't need any G** D**n probable cause. Get out of the car, now!"
Me: "NO! Show me a warrant."
Agent: "Get out of the f***ing car!"
Me: "Show me the warrant."
Agent: "I'll get the f***ing warrant, it may take all day and I don't care if you drop dead waiting."

Folks, it was about 105 degrees and I was not allowed to turn the car back on to run the AC. After five or ten minutes:

Agent: (with two buddies in tow) "We are going to search your vehicle, step out."

Me: "No, sir.

Agent: "Out of the car, now!" reaching for my arm

Me: "NO! And DON"T YOU DARE TOUCH ME!" (reaching form my cell phone on the dash)

Agent: "Out now!"

Me: Holding my cell phone and dialing: "I have been informed by my lawyer not to allow you to do this. Here's his card. Keep it, I have plenty." (I love that part, I'm proud of myself fo thinking to give this goon his card. You should have seen his face)

Agent: (face red as a beet, eyes really bugging out. This guy was mad!) "Who the f*** you calling? Put the phone down!"

Me: "First, I'm calling my lawyer, to tell him what's happening. Then I'm calling my wife to let her know that I will most likely be arrested and to arrange things with the lawyer."

Agent: "Stay here." (Like I was going anywhere.)

Ten five or more minutes later,

Agent: "You can go."

Me: "Have a nice day, officer."

This is a true story, similar are played out on law abiding citizens traveling on lawful business, almost every day. Unfortunatly, most people don't have the knowledge or resources to stand up to this illegal behavior by our "Law Enforcement Officials". The govornment line is that these "random searches" are part of the "War on Drugs". If that was the case, why didn't the plain clothed agent ask me if I had drugs in the car? Oh by the way, this happened about a year ago, before I got a CCW! So there should have been no suspicion that I was lying about the fact that I was unarmed.

My lawyer shot off a harsh letter of protest to the Agent in Charge Office, citing all the laws and rights that were violated and demanded an apology. We never recieved a response. I probably should have pursued this, but I didn't because of time and other things. But if it happens again....

The one nagging thing that I wish I could get cleared up is, who the hell was the plain clothed agent and to what agency did he belong?

Joe
Tucson, Arizona Terrirory
 
Joe

First thing I would have done is to write down the agents shield number, let him visibly see me do it. Wearing a badge does not give any LEO the right to treat you in the manner described. The idea of having an attorneys card and reaching for a cell phone is something i will keep in mind for the future.

I have had experiences with police officers that, while not quite as bad as you described, have changed my attitude toward LEO's. I do not like the us vs them attitude that seems tp permiate the PD in my area ( Particularly among the younger officers).

I will never be nasty or disrespectful of an officer, but they had better treat me with courtesy or they will get a complaint amd a letter from my attorney. I have several officers in my family and know many more some of whom I shoot with or who have been through courses I teach. Most of them have told me outright that I do not have to let an officer search my vehicle unless they have a warrent amd if they force the issue the law is on my side, but always smile and never antagonize them.

I think that LEO's should think before they act and not create any more enemies than they have already.
 
K80Geoff,

I can not agree with you more about being polite to cops. If anything, if you as the citizen blows a fuse, you are immediately in the wrong and this opens the door for a whole basket of trouble.

To tell a little family secret, my uncle is a retired FBI Special Agent. He is very disturb -ed by what he is seeing happening between the people and law enforcement these days. When I told him my tale with the INS, he said that "It appears that no one is holding the leash anymore."

For the benefit of others, let me state what to do if asked for a personal or property search by any law enforcement. These were the guidelines given to me by my lawyer, my uncle thr retired fed and a couple of cop friends.

1. Stay calm. Getting jittery will only cause the cops to get more suspicious.

2. Do not "volunteer" for a search of your person. Giving a LEO permission to do a body search opens the door for them to search you ANYWAY they deem fit, including body cavities.

3. Do not "volunteer" to have your car, house or personal property searched. This actually gives them the permission to tear your car, house or what ever apart. And, no matter what you may have heard, THEY DO NOT HAVE TOP PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

4. If pressed, use a third party defense. My wife has been instructed to say, "My husband said that if I let you search my car, he'll go ballastic". Or "Only in the presence of my attorney". This puts another person in the middle and can deflect some of the anger of the LEO away from you.

5. Get the name and card of a good lawyer and carry it in your wallet. When all else fails, you can use the lawyer to slow these guys down.

6. Do not let them make you think that they are your friend or have your interests in mind. They go to school to learn how to do this. I taught psychology in a former life and let me tell you that a little training in psych can go a long way when used on most people. The key is that most people WANT to trust law enforcement. The rouge LEO knows this and will use it against you.

7. NEVER...NEVER...NEVER tell them more than what they asked. If they ask you name, just give your name, do not volunteer any other information. MOST IMPORTANTLY remember this , if God Forbid, you needed to shoot someone in self defense. It is considered murder BY THE COPS until proven otherwise. (So much for innocent until proven guilty) Some LEO's will try to prove that: a dead guy bleeding all over your bedroom floor holding a butcher knife, wearing a black ski mask, killed your dog, and cornered you and/or your children in the bedroom was actually selling tupperware and you murdered him.

8. Get a receipt for any property they confiscate or impound. Don't forget to get it signed and a release date.

9. Remember rule #1
 
GOOD JOB JOE!!! I could not have said it better myself. The only thing I can add is that you can run the car and A/C if you so desire. Not a thing they can do. In Texas we have a little more freedom in that it is legal in some instances to shoot LEO's. This includes feds if they act inappropriately, which is why the Davidians were not convicted of murder of the ATF agents. You may also use lethal force to prevent criminal mischief in the nighttime here, most call it vandalism. I have been instructed by my attorney to NEVER consent to search and to tell everyone I know that I have been told that. This way there is no question. You also do not have to tell a LEO the truth unless he is conducting a criminal investigation. So I ask first. Have to give up the ID but when they ask my name I tell them 'Bob'. Then they have more to try to figure out. Most are good decent folks but about 20% of the time I get the power mad a$$holes and they deserve my wrath. I love screwing with the idiots, even managed to get an airport cop fired in Oklahoma City.
 
Hi All-

Very, very interesting thread. Reflecting others, the story does seem to have a few too many "holes" to be taken completely seriously. Someone is pulling our legs.

Joe Portale: Outstanding posts with lots of common sense put into list format.

Jeff OTMG: I'm not sure I follow your notions here. Surrender driver's license or similar ID that gives the following info:

Mr. Jeff OTMG
123 Main Street
Anytown, USA 12345

Driver's License # JOTMG 52345 11702

And then tell the officer that your name is Bob? My thoughts are that this would only escalate tensions, especially if you've done nothing wrong. Correct me if I read it wrong...

Kind of unrelated, but the last few posts on this thread really highlight the absolute need to utilize the cell phone as a tool.

Even if you press the speed dial for 9-1-1 and can't speak, you have "cast a lifeline" to the good guys looking for help. Law Enforcement can at least determine that the owner or user of that phone felt that they were in a threatening situation.

I'm glad these scenarios tend to be the exception rather than the rule!

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
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