Does employer's policy override CCW license?
- Thread starter DaveInPA
- Start date
Contract
State law does not trump the contract that exists between you and your employer. You agree to go to work for the employer and abide by the employer's rules in exchange for getting paid. By accepting a job with an employer with such a policy, you are forfeiting any legal rights regarding ccw while you are at work or on company property.
Your only recourse is to get a new job or petition the employer for a written exception to their company rule. Show them your training, etc....
Good Luck.
State law does not trump the contract that exists between you and your employer. You agree to go to work for the employer and abide by the employer's rules in exchange for getting paid. By accepting a job with an employer with such a policy, you are forfeiting any legal rights regarding ccw while you are at work or on company property.
Your only recourse is to get a new job or petition the employer for a written exception to their company rule. Show them your training, etc....
Good Luck.
Edward429451
Moderator
Yep, nothing beats being up front and honest about it before being locked into the situation. I'm self employed though so YMMV.
My last couple jobs before hanging out my own shingle were for big outfits and I'm sure that if I had asked for a policy ruling they would have said no weapons of course. I didn't ask and just conducted myself as one of their top notch guys and didn't hide my gun interests to anyone. That way if it ever came up (and it did) it would be a so-what kind of thing. Thats the way the owner of the outfit treated it when it came up, started talking about how they appreciated my good work etc..They didn't tell me no, yes, be safe, anything. I think they knew I was competant, no threat, and would walk if they tried to make an issue out of it. I respect them for that and kicked ass for them in appreciation.
That was a blue collar enviroment though. You guys in white collar might be screwed unless you're indespinsible to the company.
My last couple jobs before hanging out my own shingle were for big outfits and I'm sure that if I had asked for a policy ruling they would have said no weapons of course. I didn't ask and just conducted myself as one of their top notch guys and didn't hide my gun interests to anyone. That way if it ever came up (and it did) it would be a so-what kind of thing. Thats the way the owner of the outfit treated it when it came up, started talking about how they appreciated my good work etc..They didn't tell me no, yes, be safe, anything. I think they knew I was competant, no threat, and would walk if they tried to make an issue out of it. I respect them for that and kicked ass for them in appreciation.
That was a blue collar enviroment though. You guys in white collar might be screwed unless you're indespinsible to the company.
Elitist? Me?
Whew! My ears (eyes) are still ringing. Hey, lighten up a bit on my company's policy (and the pot-shots at me). Our policy certainly does not extend to the personal life of our employees. Carry at will, for heaven's sake. But, with the state of liability law today, frivolous lawsuits and insurance claims, and unpredictable actions on the part of employees, show me an employer anywhere that feels comfortable with allowing 600+ employees to be armed while representing the employer. Call it CYA? Yes, you’re right! That is not elitist, it’s called business survival. If you have an alternate point of view, let’s have it without all the name-calling.
Whew! My ears (eyes) are still ringing. Hey, lighten up a bit on my company's policy (and the pot-shots at me). Our policy certainly does not extend to the personal life of our employees. Carry at will, for heaven's sake. But, with the state of liability law today, frivolous lawsuits and insurance claims, and unpredictable actions on the part of employees, show me an employer anywhere that feels comfortable with allowing 600+ employees to be armed while representing the employer. Call it CYA? Yes, you’re right! That is not elitist, it’s called business survival. If you have an alternate point of view, let’s have it without all the name-calling.
Rangefinder
New member
Anywhere that you'd be under a corporate umbrella where weapon-carry isn't a direct part of your job, you're going to be risking your job (at minimum) if you do carry a weapon. Generally speaking, there is usually going to be some corporate liability clause writen right into your hire contract that terminates you immediately. As for having a weapon in your vehicle on a company lot, I would suggest looking into your state/local laws, then your company rules regarding property search, etc. In most cases I think it would be within your legal right to refuse a private vehicle search by an employer, but there may be a clause in the company policy that gives the company legal right to "dismiss" you for not cooperating with such a search. Way too many things can come into play with this scenerio.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Well said! Too many folks are real quick to jump up and holler "foul!" without understanding the big picture.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Does employer's policy override CCW license? That is a bit of an egocentric view. The correct thing to ask is if your license overrides the employer's policy. Your ccw license no more overrides the policy than your DL would override an employer's policy that you not drive on the lawn of the place of employment.
MyGunsJammed
New member
I havent read all the responses above but I was wondering if my company has a "no weapons" policy then what am I supposed to do if:
1) My co-worker goes postal and shoots up the office
2) If my office gets robbed at gun point (I work at a bank, so obviously, we're a target for armed robbery)
am I supposed to roll over and take it in the rear?
1) My co-worker goes postal and shoots up the office
2) If my office gets robbed at gun point (I work at a bank, so obviously, we're a target for armed robbery)
am I supposed to roll over and take it in the rear?
TexasSeaRay
New member
Nope.
Sounds more like an intellectually HONEST statement to me.
I was the number two guy in a sixteen-hundred employee business. We had a no weapons policy even though both the CEO and myself were avid shooters. The policy satisfied the leeches (lawyers & insurance weenies).
But it was how we chose to enforce the policy that made all the difference . . .
Unless the poster or anyone else is in the firm position to determine both policy and punishment/enforcement, I don't see how his statement was intellectually dishonest--especially since he was speaking from the third person POV as it pertained to his company's mindset.
Bottom line is that a company is a property and property rights were precious to our founding fathers. The government already infringes on property owners enough.
So you work in a bad neighborhood for an employer that says "No guns on our property?" Change jobs, and wear your CCW to every interview you want. Nothing in the Constitution guarantees you a job or even the Right to a job. Want a job? You gotta play by the employer's rules or else you start your OWN business with your OWN money and risks, then have whatever rules and RESPONSIBILITIES/ACCOUNTABILITIES you want.
Jeff
I have to disagree with the group here and suggest that the Constitution does not protect the rights of corporations. There is no Constitutional amendment that guarantees that individual freedoms will not supercede corporate 'wants'. There is no Constitutional amendment protecting the freedom of the people to drive over someone's grass.
I don't know about other states, but Florida is the most impressive in this aspect. They do not allow owners of private property that is open to the public to discriminate against those who may lawfully carry a concealed weapon. Very soon, corporate policy will not infringe on an individual's right to have a weapon in their vehicle, regardless of where it is parked.
It's too easy for you guys in a position of power to do the wrong thing, just because it's easy. Your employees had rights when they came to work for you, they should not have to check them at the door. To fully accept and exercise your right to carry a concealed weapon while prohibiting others from doing so is hypocrisy. Like Rose and her armed guards, no different.
Ever hear of the slowly boiling frog???
I don't know about other states, but Florida is the most impressive in this aspect. They do not allow owners of private property that is open to the public to discriminate against those who may lawfully carry a concealed weapon. Very soon, corporate policy will not infringe on an individual's right to have a weapon in their vehicle, regardless of where it is parked.
It's too easy for you guys in a position of power to do the wrong thing, just because it's easy. Your employees had rights when they came to work for you, they should not have to check them at the door. To fully accept and exercise your right to carry a concealed weapon while prohibiting others from doing so is hypocrisy. Like Rose and her armed guards, no different.
Ever hear of the slowly boiling frog???
computerguysd
New member
"Call it CYA? Yes, you’re right! That is not elitist, it’s called business survival. If you have an alternate point of view, let’s have it without all the name-calling".
No name calling.
What I've wondered is, that in attempting to limit corporate responsibility by creating "gun free" policies, doesn't a business in effect take on the responsibility if any of their customers or employees are then directly harmed by that policy when they are left defenseless in an attack.
Prohibiting legally licensed individuals from engaging in a legally sanctioned activity (carrying concealed) that directly results in harm or death certainly appears to create MORE liability for a company that has a gun free policy.
The mall shooting in Omaha would make an interesting "test case" if there's not been one already.
No name calling.
What I've wondered is, that in attempting to limit corporate responsibility by creating "gun free" policies, doesn't a business in effect take on the responsibility if any of their customers or employees are then directly harmed by that policy when they are left defenseless in an attack.
Prohibiting legally licensed individuals from engaging in a legally sanctioned activity (carrying concealed) that directly results in harm or death certainly appears to create MORE liability for a company that has a gun free policy.
The mall shooting in Omaha would make an interesting "test case" if there's not been one already.
Same answer as to the first question. If they ask you to search your car and you say no, they can fire you. They can't legally break into your vehicle, but if you won't open it for them they can tell you that you don't work there anymore.
My company has a similar policy. An employee's car burned in the lot--the firemen found the remains of a handgun in the burned out hulk and the car's owner lost his job and his car the same day.
So far they have not searched cars in the lot, but that has happened at other companies. Apparently there's such a thing as "gun-sniffing" dogs and they were instrumental in getting several people fired at a company in OK awhile back. The state legislature passed a law trying to make it illegal for that to happen in the future but it was tied up in the courts.
Bottom line: If your employer says no guns they can enforce it.
Well, if interviewing for a job, I don't know if I'd start asking gun related questions right out. May just get your resume thrown in the trash.
Maybe a subtler way would be to ask for a current employee or company policy handbook, then read it at your leisure. I'm not sure about all states, but it seems like if it is not written down, read by and or signed by you before you accept employment, they shouldn't be able to fire you for it. Of course, thats just my opinion.Licensed Activities
I think your missing the point here. The context of my remarks (several posts back) is work time, the paid hours during which an employee is representing his employer. The mere fact that the employee is "licensed" for a given activity does not mean that the employer should, by default, condone the activity during paid work time. The idea that the employer has an obligation to permit weapons in the workplace, and might incur greater liability for not doing so, is just not realistic in today's risk management world.
I think your missing the point here. The context of my remarks (several posts back) is work time, the paid hours during which an employee is representing his employer. The mere fact that the employee is "licensed" for a given activity does not mean that the employer should, by default, condone the activity during paid work time. The idea that the employer has an obligation to permit weapons in the workplace, and might incur greater liability for not doing so, is just not realistic in today's risk management world.
Kmoffit,
Take up a collection, let the soap box civil rights authorities and chest beaters pay your insurance.
From my personal experience in business, if you have 600 employees, 100 of them are plotting how to sue you and get something for nothing, and another 300 would sue you if they saw a fellow employee with a gun on premises.
Sad commentary on our times, but true, must be television.
Oh, tell the chest beaters how insurance doubles everytime you have a claim, and after the third or fourth claim, you are cancelled and NOBODY will every write you insurance again.
Without insurance, a business cannot get licenses, loans, permits, sell stock, obtain government contracts, do business in most states or hire employees.
These chest beaters are the same one who rail against businesses that take their businesses overseas.
Take up a collection, let the soap box civil rights authorities and chest beaters pay your insurance.
From my personal experience in business, if you have 600 employees, 100 of them are plotting how to sue you and get something for nothing, and another 300 would sue you if they saw a fellow employee with a gun on premises.
Sad commentary on our times, but true, must be television.
Oh, tell the chest beaters how insurance doubles everytime you have a claim, and after the third or fourth claim, you are cancelled and NOBODY will every write you insurance again.
Without insurance, a business cannot get licenses, loans, permits, sell stock, obtain government contracts, do business in most states or hire employees.
These chest beaters are the same one who rail against businesses that take their businesses overseas.
Seems to me that you´re not very happy about your job in the first place. Otherwise, you wouldn´t be talking about "who wins" in the CCW license Vs. Employer´s Policy.
I work six days a week, sorrounded by yuppies in a building with a no-firearms policy. On the upper floors, there´s even a Bank, and the security of the building is supossed to be "safe" but it´s not. I could carry a weapon on me or in my bag and noone would notice, but I don´t, because that kind of decision would could cost me my job.
Unless they allow you to carry (get a written permission) or you wanna get fired, leave the guns home. There´s people (even yor best friends/co-workers) who really fear guns, and won´t hesitate in order to send you home.
I work six days a week, sorrounded by yuppies in a building with a no-firearms policy. On the upper floors, there´s even a Bank, and the security of the building is supossed to be "safe" but it´s not. I could carry a weapon on me or in my bag and noone would notice, but I don´t, because that kind of decision would could cost me my job.
Unless they allow you to carry (get a written permission) or you wanna get fired, leave the guns home. There´s people (even yor best friends/co-workers) who really fear guns, and won´t hesitate in order to send you home.
ShootemDown
Moderator
I dont understand the replies most have given. the question is simple...
Is it LEGAL for Employers to tell Permit holders to NOT carry their concealed weapons to work / at work in the state of PA or is it not ?
I am dying to know !
Is it LEGAL for Employers to tell Permit holders to NOT carry their concealed weapons to work / at work in the state of PA or is it not ?
I am dying to know !
ShootemDown
Moderator
Fine, but what if you need the carry gun for after work and before work ? say you travel through drug infested neighborhoods to get home ?
not allowing a gun to be at work means no protection to / from work as well. cars get broken into all the time and it isnt a safe bet to store your gun in a car...