Does bedding and floating always (or at least almost always) help?

Someone mentioned pillar's. I never tried using pillar's but I suspect if you put in yhe pillars and then bedded it would be best. With the pillar's in it the action get's pulled down the same every time. Put the bedding in with the pillar's and the action toush's every thing the same every time. Just bother's me drilling out a big hole in the wood. Mess it up and you get to live with it or buy a new stock!
 
Pillars correctly position the receiver & allow the recoil lug to position correctly.
Mashing wood or some of the softer synthetic stocks results in the recoil lug being a fulcrum, since bedding makes for the lug bottoming out instead of having an open bottom.
This also screws up any preload you might be using on the barrel...

Mashing stock material, and keeping from bowing the receiver is why I recommend a torque limiting driver of some kind so the action screws get back in with repeatability.

Bedding helps keep from bowing the receiver, but it's half the equation, the torque limiter is the other half, and in some cases will negate the need for bedding.
Bedding will still help, but sometimes the rifle becomes a good enough shooter the owners skips bedding.
Click to expand...

Jeep, I won't say you're wrong but I don't agree with all your points. The pillars and/or action screws in a rifle are not meant to take any shear force at all. Because of this, action screws do not need to be torqued to the point that you should be compressing material. The point of bedding, ESPECIALLY at the rear of the recoil lug, is to have all the recoil force impart on the stock through the lug and not the action screws. Of course, you bed the rest of the action to get a perfect mating surface and remove any slop so that there is no room for that perfect mating surface between the rear of the recoil lug and the action to part ways. Without the proper bearing surface between the lug and the stock, there could be potential for "action slide" in the stock. Overtightening action screws could help tame this, and over tightening would compress stock material without pillars. This isn't how it should be though. The only force that the action screws should withstand is to keep the action from separating vertically from the stock. Torque specs differ wildly, going from a low of 15 in/lbs to a high of 65 or so. Take the high of 65 in/lbs and it converts to about 5 1/2 ft-lbs. Using Walnut as an example, the Janka hardness (a test of compressive strength) of it is 1010 ft/lbs, or about 187 times that of the high end of torque specs (it's about a 1000 times that of the low end) for action screws. The point of all of this... well is that you aren't significantly compressing stock materials if you skip the pillars. Pillars were much more common (and probably beneficial) when torque specs were not practiced or adhered to, and many folks just cranked down on action screws until they were "real good and tight." The material at the head of the screw on many rifles likely was compressed as you say, but not out of necessity. More out of carelessness. Pillars helped prevent this.

There is no need to torque action screws to extremes, as they are designed to hold the action to the stock vertically and nothing else. There is no real significant force imparted by recoil that would separate the action vertically from the stock either. You could fire a 300 magnum with the action screws removed and simple hand pressure holding the stock/action together if you had to. It wouldn't even need a death grip, just a good firm one akin to holding a pistol. Properly torqueing action screws simply doesn't come close to the force needed to compress or "mash" stock material, even at that critical area where the screw head bears against the stock.


I'm not really trying to argue as much as offer a different point of view. With a properly bedded action and floated barrel, the recoil lug should not be a fulcrum at all. I also will add one caveat. If the barrel is tensioned and not floated, I would highly recommend pillars for reasons that you covered well.
 
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"...results in the recoil lug being a fulcrum..." Bedding job wasn't done right.
"...pillar bedding is the "right" way to do it..." Pillar bedding is one way to do it. Pillars do one thing. They keep the stock and metal separate vs the exact opposite for glass bedding. They do nothing whatever to the recoil lug. The recoil lug deals with forces coming backwards. You bed the recoil lug so it spreads those forces equally. Pillars just lift and separate.
No need to torque anything either. Screwdriver, hand tight, will do.
 
I use 1/2" diameter steel tubing from Home Depot for pillars and usually glue them in prior to the rest of the bedding.

It's CRITICAL to place 2 or 3 layers of masking tape under, front and sides of the recoil plate to provide clearance. The rear is the ONLY place the shield should touch the stock/bedding.

I free-float all barrels from about 2 inches ahead of the recoil plate. Space between barrels and channel should be at LEAST 1/16". Forget about a dollar-bill test...not sufficient clearance!!!

I usually bed along the sides of the action as well as front and rear of the action.

Free-floating also prevents sling strain or front rest positions from changing POI. The barrel is free to vibrate the same way for each shot with a given load. So what if it groups 1/8"-1/4" tighter at 100 yards when varied forend rests or sling pressure causes strike-point to vary 3-5 inches? RELIEVE THAT BARREL CHANNEL on hunting rifles!

JP
 
I have to disagree, and agree with Picher.

Pillars are STOPS, they precisely stop the action at the stock/bedding.
Repeatable results.

*IF* you are relying on barrel preload, this is beyond critical, which is why so many skinny barrel hunting rifles shoot better with pillars/bedding.

On ANY bedded rifle, the recoil lug well is filled with epoxy, the recoil lug is placed into that well, the epoxy molds precisely to the recoil lug.
If you crank down on the receiver screws, particularly if those screws are behind the recoil lug, the lug works like a fulcrum, muzzle rises as action is pulled down into the stock.
Pillars prevent this from happening since you can't compress steel with 25-60 Inch pound torque screw, but you darn sure can crush wood or synthetic materials.

If you don't believe you need a torque limiting device, simply put your hand on an accurate scale and try to hold a constant pressure. (Impossible, the human nervous system isn't built that way).
A torque limiting 'Wrench' allows you to precisely reproduce the tension on the receiver.

YOU can do it however you want to, that's up to you.
Pillars run a couple bucks each, epoxy in with the bedding material, a lot of potential screw-ups go out the window...
Repeatable results without issues like wood swelling or contracting, over torque issues minimized, etc.
 
I reiterate that tape under, ahead and on the sides of the recoil plate is critical. The tape is removed and clearance maintained after set-up. It's also difficult to impossible to remove the action from the stock if tape isn't present to provide clearance.

I've read the instructions for several bedding materials and they all suggested that tape be applied to the recoil plate front, bottom and sides.

However, do as you wish. Maybe the pillars will save the job.
 
I tape recoil lug, single wrap, and I smear it with mold release also.
I made that mistake on my very first bedding job, just mold release.
I got lucky, the forward action screw went into the recoil lug so I was able to punch the recoil lug out of the bedding without drilling a hole in the stock to punch it out.

Any bedding is 'Good', with or without pillars, simply because it seals moisture out where wood meets action, even if it's thin and doesn't support the action 100%.
I had an old no name rifle that had (I think) beechwood stock. That thing would warp when you sneezed on it! I got caught in the rain and it was visibly warped by the time I got home... Soaked up water like a sponge!

It's not up to me if you pillar or not.
I just recommend pillars since they are cheap to make and free to install if you are doing a bedding job anyway...

Keep in mind that many older stocks weren't very well fitted, lots of big gaps and thin spots.
Pillars made for super solid mounts for the action (still do), and bedding made those old stocks much better fitting (still does).

I'm just glad to hear people still take time to work on the rifles instead of slapping on 'Tacti-Cool' crap!
The trend towards how it 'Looks' instead of how it shoots baffles me...?
 
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If you crank down on the receiver screws, particularly if those screws are behind the recoil lug, the lug works like a fulcrum, muzzle rises as action is pulled down into the stock.
Click to expand...

Not if there is bedding material surrounding the action to the rear tang. You have a perfect mating surface back there as well prevents the condition that you speak of. Further if there is any compression of materials, it will be at the screw head under the stock and not at the action. Compressing material at the screw head will not compress the action to the stock any tighter. But I digress.

I'm just glad to hear people still take time to work on the rifles instead of slapping on 'Tacti-Cool' crap!
The trend towards how it 'Looks' instead of how it shoots baffles me...
Click to expand...

On this we both agree my friend.
 
I bed all my rifles. However I consider it fine tuning. I do not like pressure points on the front of the stock, too much of a variable when temp or humidity changes. If you have a rifle with a pressure point at the front I would not free float it unless I also planned on bedding it.

Handloading and optimizing ammo gives me my biggest improvement in accuracy.
 
I have bedded and pillar bedded enough differently made rifles to realize it tends to help rifles to be properly bedded.
All of my rifles, (minus military Mausers) are floated, pillared, and Devon plastic Steel bedded.
I don't have the patience to get pictures to post here, but I have a library of bedding pictures, and targets resulting from bedding,.
Do not attempt to bed or float rifle if you're not fairly handy at gunwork.
 
Do any one, any combo, or none of the below... It's up to you.

There are some pretty good videos on bedding, it's not all that hard to get right with the kits & supplies for that very purpose.
Your first time will make a mess, but some thought into drips, smears & squeeze out will minimize that, along with having more than one set of gloves laid out handy (bathroom trips, smoke or drink breaks, answering the phone, etc).

Keep in mind, this is like painting with a VERY permanent paint!
Tape off, coat, grease or otherwise protect EVERYTHING you don't want the epoxy sticking to.
Painters know preparation is 90% of the job...

I HIGHLY recommend a package of single edge razor blades! Straight cut lines on tape, scrape/shave off spots that well up before they completely harden, etc.
Have a large garbage can handy! Nothing like finding the mixing stick or razor blade hardened onto the floor where you missed a small trash can.

Make sure you do this somewhere the drips won't get you divorced!
I believe it's worth the time & effort, but that's up to you...

Maybe because started on $30 rifles in the 70s and not trying it on $500 (or more) rifles now.
Some of us remember the war surplus rifles sold in magazines for cheap, and when Western Auto (Sears, etc.) sold rifles under their store names...

Now, mold release has come a LONG WAY! You don't have the gap created by tape or the issues that used to come with grease, but nearly all mold release will leave a few thousand gap when it's cleaned off the receiver...
For some reason people don't talk about that mold release thickness.

ANY GAP under the receiver (and many bedding materials WILL contract/shrink) and the receiver screws will bow the receiver.
It's mechanical advantage, specifically gear reduction (threads on screws) that produce a great deal of force without much force on the screw driver.
If you don't believe this, simply put your finger between stock action while tightening the screw like normal...

Also, don't mistake bedding, pillars & repeatable torque/tightening.
Bedding is a SUPPORT for (mainly) the recoil lug, then support for the action.
Pillars are a STOP, a dead locked up STOP for the downward movement of the action into the stock (no cracked bedding).
A torque limiter (torque driver) gets that lock up between stock & action back in the same place every time.

Anyone that tries this also mounts their own optics, and CORRECT optics mounting requires an inch pound torque driver. The same torque driver works for both applications.

Just my 40+ years experience, take advantage or don't, it's up to you.
 
I always suggest having your first pillar bedding, or bedding job done PROFESSIONALLY.
Even if it's just a .22lr :)

Reason being, once you know how it's supposed to look, and have a reference to look at when you DIY, makes life a lot easier when you try it later.

Doing a .22lr first your self is also a nice option, pickup a cheap beater at a pawn shop/yard sale,
shoot it for a base, then do the job, then after its fully dried, go shoot again and compare the results.

Chances are you're gonna mess up the first time out.
Far better to screw up on a cheapie than a centerfire ;)
 
I use paste shoe polish (blond) for a release agent, after I read it somewhere. Thickness is near zero and it releases better than anything else. It can also stay on the metal to protect it. No need to remove after bedding!

I still use masking tape on the muzzle side, bottom, and sides of the recoil plate and coat both front, back and sides of the taped with the paste wax.

Half-inch diameter steel tubing works well for pillars and it's cheap. Get mine at Home Depot for a couple of bucks and it's long enough to do several rifles. I score the outside with my moto-tool or edge of a grinding wheel.
 
Troy800 hit on something. OP, do you handload? If you do, that would probably help a lot.
If not, different types of factory ammo is a place to start. With a good scope next. I had a 788 some time ago. I remember the trigger as being very good. Mine was a .308. Damn good shooter using handloads and a Weaver Classis 4x scope. Wish i still had it. Traded for a rifle that I just had to have. I think yours is a pretty easy fix.
 
I am a little late to this party. I found that floating a barrel without bedding is likely to make things worse. The barrel set in the stock holds things locked in place. Once the barrel is floated the receiver is free to shift around.

Also on the use of pillars. They can be combined with bedding to provide a precise reference for the height of the receiver during the bedding. This can slightly elevate the
receiver and allow for good base of bedding under the receiver. You end up with the barrel floated with a very minimal removal of wood.

Set your pillars first. Then apply the bedding. Finally float the barrel.

If, shooting the worse garbage ammo in a bum barrel, all the pillars and bedding wont amount to anything. And a junk scope with shifting internals is another recipe for failure.

All the home tricks and tips are fine. I suggest buying a real kit such as Brownell acraglas gel with the release agent included. Try the alternatives later.

I am sure there are no shortage of youtubes - some good and if history is any guide some just horrible. Brownell has done some. Buying an old beater POS 22 for practice was great advise.
 
Grouping from the bench doesn't always translate to accurate shots in the field, especially in the case of pressure points in the forend. Sling pressure and various holds/rests in the field all can change POI unless the barrel is adequately free-floated, which I define is having at least 1/16" clearance everywhere except for about the first two inches from the receiver.

However that doesn't apply to rifles with only one action screw, like the 10/22 and cheap bolt actions. I drilled and tapped the receiver of my Rem 581 to add a second action screw and it made a huge difference in accuracy, allowing the barrel to free-float.

The only drawback to free-floating barrels is that the POI tends to vary more with changes in bullet and powder charge. Changes in rests, sling pressure, and shooting positions have less impact, which is a great thing, especially for hunting rifles.

When I settle on a load for hunting, etc., I don't vary scope adjustments when testing other loads. The rifle will retain zero regardless of weather, which is very important for hunting rifles with wood stocks.
 
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