Does anyone here practice point shooting?
- Thread starter aarondhgraham
- Start date
Spend ALOT of time shooting with the sights. Then practice shooting from the same position without actively using the sights. The trick is that your body/brain/eyes/arms/hands know that the front sight will be between your eye and the target when you pull the trigger.
Point shooting is effective out to just about arms length for most people, after that, use the sights.
If your point shooting technique requires you to adapt to a different position to utilize it, you are wasting your time practicing it. Are you really going to decide, in the middle of a gunfight, that the target is just inside/just outside your ability to make a hit point shooting and change your shooting technique to match the estimated range of the threat? Likely, no.
The only true hip/point shooting that has any real merit is the old Chapman speed rock where you literally crank the gun out of the holster turn it horizontal and slap the trigger when you are within touching distance of an adversary. And, you can still miss with that technique with disturbing regularity.
Point shooting is effective out to just about arms length for most people, after that, use the sights.
If your point shooting technique requires you to adapt to a different position to utilize it, you are wasting your time practicing it. Are you really going to decide, in the middle of a gunfight, that the target is just inside/just outside your ability to make a hit point shooting and change your shooting technique to match the estimated range of the threat? Likely, no.
The only true hip/point shooting that has any real merit is the old Chapman speed rock where you literally crank the gun out of the holster turn it horizontal and slap the trigger when you are within touching distance of an adversary. And, you can still miss with that technique with disturbing regularity.
Maybe I am off base or not on the same sheet of music with the topic, but would using Crimson Trace or other lazer sights fall in the same league with point shooting?
I have two pistols with CT, and It took a few rounds to adjust the CT to where the lazer was ponting where the sights were aimed. Once this was accomplished then it is simply a matter of looking for the red dot and pulling the trigger. That is, if the light conditions favor the visibility of the lazer.
Possibly this is cheating as far as the meaning of point shooting is intended.
I have two pistols with CT, and It took a few rounds to adjust the CT to where the lazer was ponting where the sights were aimed. Once this was accomplished then it is simply a matter of looking for the red dot and pulling the trigger. That is, if the light conditions favor the visibility of the lazer.
Possibly this is cheating as far as the meaning of point shooting is intended.
Nobody disagrees with aiming shots. Use them when you CAN.
Not an expert, but there are those who've given accounts of encounters so close that you might need unarmed fighting skills just to access your gun. Been in environments where you can't see your sights, and "point" shooting ability could come in handy---but only if your practice it.
Point shooting (aka "hip shooting" or "instinctive shooting") is a subject of some debate in modern shooting circles. That's sad because everyone should practice some point shooting in order to be ready for that "moment of need".
By point shooting, I'm saying that you're firing without raising the handgun above chest level. In fact, you may be shooting from between waist level to chest level.
Where does point shooting fit in your training?
While I'm also an advocate of aimed fire, you may be unable to use aimed fire in the first seconds of any lethal force encounter. Events may unfold with great speed at close distances and without warning, forcing you to improvise in order to save your delicate posterior.
Years ago, I knew a guy who moonlighted as a private investigator. One evening, as he was entering a pizza parlor with his wife and 8 y/o daughter, he found himself defending against a knife-attack. He was holding his daughter's hand in his weak hand as they approached the door. His wife opened the door when running footsteps were heard. He only saw two men and a large knife coming at him. He yelled a warning and pushed his daughter through the door while drawing his carry gun, an early Detonics .45 ACP. "It was not a thing of beauty." he told me, in reference to what happened. His wife followed the daughter through the door while he imposed his bulk between his family and the attackers. He used his left arm to prepare to block the knife attack while bringing the Detonics just above waist level. The knife slashed his forearm (some serious damage) just as he fired 3 rounds of Remington 185gr JHP into the perp from waist level. The 2nd attacker landed a blow to his right ear and he staggered left, twisting his body to keep the gun in close as he fired two more shots. Perp #2 staggered away about 15 ft and dropped. Perp #1 was a guy he'd testified against 7 years prior for pedophila and extortion. Perp #2 was an ex-felon with a history of assaults and robberies. To him, the event seemed to take about 10 seconds. But witnesses (2 in the parking lot, four in the pizza parlor) said it took only 2-3 seconds. One claimed it took about 4 seconds from the time he saw both men start running from the bar next door to Perp #2 staggering away. He said had it not been for the fact that [my friend] was obviously off balance and trying to back through a door, it looked almost like a movie scene.
The point of the above recollection is to illustrate several points about confrontations.
Situational awareness is a good thing™ but it is not infallible. You can be very aware of your surroundings yet, focused on the wrong subject(s). (All it takes for most men is one shapely young woman in a bikini for them to lose awareness for a few seconds.)
By point shooting, I'm saying that you're firing without raising the handgun above chest level. In fact, you may be shooting from between waist level to chest level.
Where does point shooting fit in your training?
While I'm also an advocate of aimed fire, you may be unable to use aimed fire in the first seconds of any lethal force encounter. Events may unfold with great speed at close distances and without warning, forcing you to improvise in order to save your delicate posterior.
Years ago, I knew a guy who moonlighted as a private investigator. One evening, as he was entering a pizza parlor with his wife and 8 y/o daughter, he found himself defending against a knife-attack. He was holding his daughter's hand in his weak hand as they approached the door. His wife opened the door when running footsteps were heard. He only saw two men and a large knife coming at him. He yelled a warning and pushed his daughter through the door while drawing his carry gun, an early Detonics .45 ACP. "It was not a thing of beauty." he told me, in reference to what happened. His wife followed the daughter through the door while he imposed his bulk between his family and the attackers. He used his left arm to prepare to block the knife attack while bringing the Detonics just above waist level. The knife slashed his forearm (some serious damage) just as he fired 3 rounds of Remington 185gr JHP into the perp from waist level. The 2nd attacker landed a blow to his right ear and he staggered left, twisting his body to keep the gun in close as he fired two more shots. Perp #2 staggered away about 15 ft and dropped. Perp #1 was a guy he'd testified against 7 years prior for pedophila and extortion. Perp #2 was an ex-felon with a history of assaults and robberies. To him, the event seemed to take about 10 seconds. But witnesses (2 in the parking lot, four in the pizza parlor) said it took only 2-3 seconds. One claimed it took about 4 seconds from the time he saw both men start running from the bar next door to Perp #2 staggering away. He said had it not been for the fact that [my friend] was obviously off balance and trying to back through a door, it looked almost like a movie scene.
The point of the above recollection is to illustrate several points about confrontations.
- You may not have any time to prepare for an attack.
- Your support hand may be occupied with something important (wife, child, elderly parent, a gift box, etc.)
- You might need your off-side arm to block attacks while drawing.
- Injuries or grasping may render your off-side arm useless during the incident (and after).
- The attackers may be in such close quarters as to preclude eye-level aiming.
- You may not be able to retreat or put distance between you fast enough to raise the gun for aimed fire.
- You may be attacked/assaulted first, leaving your vision blurred by pain and having to rely on "instinctive" shooting.
Situational awareness is a good thing™ but it is not infallible. You can be very aware of your surroundings yet, focused on the wrong subject(s). (All it takes for most men is one shapely young woman in a bikini for them to lose awareness for a few seconds.)
At the distances most gunfights take place (under 7 yards and usually in arms reach) point shooting is probably all you will be able to do. I don't understand this constant battle over point shooting vs. sighted. Each has it's place. When you are a few feet from your opponent you will point shoot. raising your gun at arms length will get it snatched. Generally the farther back you get the more you can use the sights. Beyond point shooting range you will probably use a "flash sight picture". As you get further back you want and need to use a more precise sight picture.
I know I don't do it enough, but under pressure it's a good skill to "Point Shoot" well.
I used to point shoot my S&W Sigma SW9VE before I sold (Big mistake) it to my Brother rapid firing at 15 yards, 2 out of 3 would hit center mass and every shot hit the silhouette, I'm not as good with my CZ75B like that!!
I did OK at 7 yards with my S&W 638 1-7/8" barrel, but I never tried 15y, "yet".
Thanks for the reminder.
I used to point shoot my S&W Sigma SW9VE before I sold (Big mistake) it to my Brother rapid firing at 15 yards, 2 out of 3 would hit center mass and every shot hit the silhouette, I'm not as good with my CZ75B like that!!
I did OK at 7 yards with my S&W 638 1-7/8" barrel, but I never tried 15y, "yet".
Thanks for the reminder.
imthegrumpyone
New member
I always point my weapon before I shoot. 
(sorry just had too)
(sorry just had too)I'm not criticizing Bill, but it would sure help if we had a common definition of what point shooting is. I'm inclined to define it as bringing gun to eye level and being able to see the sights as a reference without focusing on them.
I'd define what Bill calls point shooting as hip shooting.
In any even, no matter what you call it, I think Bill's point is well taken.
pythagorean
Moderator
The fastest shooting handgun from the hip is not an auto or DA revolver.
It's a Colt Single Action Army or similar.
Try it out if you disagree. The balance and handle of the SAA was made for the hand.
It's a Colt Single Action Army or similar.
Try it out if you disagree. The balance and handle of the SAA was made for the hand.
aarondhgraham
New member
Definition of Point shooting,,,
I define Point Shooting as:
Any instance where you point and shoot the handgun,,,
Without ever looking at the sights to take aim.
The webpage I referred to defines it this way:
I must admit I am a bit taken aback by the people who regard this as an unnecessary or even undesirable skill,,,
How can any developed skill with a handgun be undesirable?
When people ask me: Why?,,,
I answer with: Why not?,,,
It can't possibly hurt.
I think BillCa hit the nail right on the head when he stated:
But hey,,,
We're all free men,,,
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion.
I was really hoping for practical discussion,,,
And if possible, an exchange of techniques and tips.
Peace brothers and sisters,,,
.
I define Point Shooting as:
Any instance where you point and shoot the handgun,,,
Without ever looking at the sights to take aim.
The webpage I referred to defines it this way:
I must admit I am a bit taken aback by the people who regard this as an unnecessary or even undesirable skill,,,
How can any developed skill with a handgun be undesirable?
When people ask me: Why?,,,
I answer with: Why not?,,,
It can't possibly hurt.
I think BillCa hit the nail right on the head when he stated:
But hey,,,
We're all free men,,,
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion.
I was really hoping for practical discussion,,,
And if possible, an exchange of techniques and tips.
Peace brothers and sisters,,,
.
i think my biggest concern is, is that point shooting is actually harder than aiming down the signts. an inexperienced shooter might think point shootiing is easier since you dont have to use the sights, you just point the gun in thegeneral direction and fire
of course with point shooting, you have to have the most natural fitting gun to your hand where it is an extension of not just your hand, but your forearm at least to your elbow for hip shooting. and it takes a lot of time and practice, and muscle memory, and you have to use repitition to make sure you do things the exact same time every time.
but if you can put in the time and effort to perfect and master it, good for you
of course with point shooting, you have to have the most natural fitting gun to your hand where it is an extension of not just your hand, but your forearm at least to your elbow for hip shooting. and it takes a lot of time and practice, and muscle memory, and you have to use repitition to make sure you do things the exact same time every time.
but if you can put in the time and effort to perfect and master it, good for you
aarondhgraham
New member
Hello greyson97,,,
That's exactly the reason I purchased the Model 34 in .22 LR as a companion gun to my Model 36 in .38 Special,,,
I can afford the practice with lots of the cheaper .22 ammunition and a little .38 Special.
After I installed Pachmayer Compac gris on them,,,
They feel exactly the same in my hand,,,
And I do mean exactly the same.
The Model 34 wasn't cheap but it will quickly pay for itself in ammo cost reduction,,,
It's turned out to be one of the smarter decisions I've made lately.
.
That's exactly the reason I purchased the Model 34 in .22 LR as a companion gun to my Model 36 in .38 Special,,,
I can afford the practice with lots of the cheaper .22 ammunition and a little .38 Special.
After I installed Pachmayer Compac gris on them,,,
They feel exactly the same in my hand,,,
And I do mean exactly the same.
The Model 34 wasn't cheap but it will quickly pay for itself in ammo cost reduction,,,
It's turned out to be one of the smarter decisions I've made lately.
.
LouisianaMan
New member
Point-shooting. . .YES
After reading Jeff Cooper back when I was a teen in the early 70s, I adopted a Weaver stance and scorned anything else. Although I tried some "shooting from the hip," it was only a rare accident that I hit anything.
Flash forward to 2010, when I bought copies of Fairbairn & Sykes's Shooting to Live and a book by Applegate (I forget the title). It seemed to me that there might be something to their reasoning and their techniques. I'm a historian, and haven't independently verified their claims, but I have no reason to doubt that F&S saw LOTS of close-quarter gun battles in Shanghai and elsewhere, and that Applegate also "walked the walk." So, I decided to give point shooting a try.
So far, I've only done it one afternoon, firing perhaps 125 rds. each from a Mod. 15 and a Mod. 67, both .38 SPLs with 4" barrels. The Mod 15 had stock walnut grips, and I had an old pair of K-frame round butt walnut grips on the Mod 67. Ammo was a variety of target- to full-power reloads, plus factory ammo from 110g standard pressure to 158g +P.
I used Applegate's concept of raising my firing hand from the shoulder, like a pump handle, holding the gun tightly with strong hand only, and pulling the trigger rapidly in 2- to 3-round bursts as soon as the gun covered the target. I faced targets squarely and crouched aggressively as I raised the gun. Targets were three cardboard boxes, approx. torso size. Ranges: 2-15 yards, mostly 5-10 yds. I was in a deep gully, shady & getting dark at the end of the session.
Results: I hit somewhere on those boxes with almost every shot, to include at 12+ yds as it neared dark. I would estimate a hit % of over 90%--probably 95%.
As soon as the weather cooperates, I'm going back to try the F&S methods of "quarter-hip," half-hip," and "three-quarter hip" to see if I can index the gun accurately at the close ranges they recommended for those stances. I plan to try this sytem with every revolver I own.
Note that F&S recommended two-handed fire beyond 30 feet or so, and neither they nor Applegate ever argued that sights should never be used. Just NOT at close range. They specifically argued that close-range pistol fighting instinctively caused a participant to (a) face the threat squarely; (b) crouch defensively; (c) grip the gun as though it weighed 20-30 pounds instead of 2-3 lbs; and (4) pull triggers vigorously instead of squeezing the trigger. In other words, high threat = gross motor movements. F&S also believed that you would shoot from below eye level if the threat is close. Applegate, who died only a few years ago, accepted that someone who practiced a LOT could teach themselves to use fine motor skills & sights in a close-quarters fight to the death, but believed it took LOTS more training than point-shooting.
I have never "been there," but their arguments are convincing to me. So far, so are my personal results.
After reading Jeff Cooper back when I was a teen in the early 70s, I adopted a Weaver stance and scorned anything else. Although I tried some "shooting from the hip," it was only a rare accident that I hit anything.
Flash forward to 2010, when I bought copies of Fairbairn & Sykes's Shooting to Live and a book by Applegate (I forget the title). It seemed to me that there might be something to their reasoning and their techniques. I'm a historian, and haven't independently verified their claims, but I have no reason to doubt that F&S saw LOTS of close-quarter gun battles in Shanghai and elsewhere, and that Applegate also "walked the walk." So, I decided to give point shooting a try.
So far, I've only done it one afternoon, firing perhaps 125 rds. each from a Mod. 15 and a Mod. 67, both .38 SPLs with 4" barrels. The Mod 15 had stock walnut grips, and I had an old pair of K-frame round butt walnut grips on the Mod 67. Ammo was a variety of target- to full-power reloads, plus factory ammo from 110g standard pressure to 158g +P.
I used Applegate's concept of raising my firing hand from the shoulder, like a pump handle, holding the gun tightly with strong hand only, and pulling the trigger rapidly in 2- to 3-round bursts as soon as the gun covered the target. I faced targets squarely and crouched aggressively as I raised the gun. Targets were three cardboard boxes, approx. torso size. Ranges: 2-15 yards, mostly 5-10 yds. I was in a deep gully, shady & getting dark at the end of the session.
Results: I hit somewhere on those boxes with almost every shot, to include at 12+ yds as it neared dark. I would estimate a hit % of over 90%--probably 95%.
As soon as the weather cooperates, I'm going back to try the F&S methods of "quarter-hip," half-hip," and "three-quarter hip" to see if I can index the gun accurately at the close ranges they recommended for those stances. I plan to try this sytem with every revolver I own.
Note that F&S recommended two-handed fire beyond 30 feet or so, and neither they nor Applegate ever argued that sights should never be used. Just NOT at close range. They specifically argued that close-range pistol fighting instinctively caused a participant to (a) face the threat squarely; (b) crouch defensively; (c) grip the gun as though it weighed 20-30 pounds instead of 2-3 lbs; and (4) pull triggers vigorously instead of squeezing the trigger. In other words, high threat = gross motor movements. F&S also believed that you would shoot from below eye level if the threat is close. Applegate, who died only a few years ago, accepted that someone who practiced a LOT could teach themselves to use fine motor skills & sights in a close-quarters fight to the death, but believed it took LOTS more training than point-shooting.
I have never "been there," but their arguments are convincing to me. So far, so are my personal results.
g.willikers
New member
Rex Applegate's book is "Kill or Get Killed", and it's still available.
The best definition I've heard of point shooting is shooting without being aware of the gun.
Think the shot and doing it.
Maybe borrowing a saying from the archers - become the bullet.
The best definition I've heard of point shooting is shooting without being aware of the gun.
Think the shot and doing it.
Maybe borrowing a saying from the archers - become the bullet.
kodiakbeer
Moderator
Well... if that's the definition of point shooting, then I think we can all do it. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding, but I was defining point shooting as being able to shoot a definable and reasonable group.
When I shoot, I use a steel spinner contraption with 2 inch and 4 inch plates. At 15 yards with aimed fire, I expect to hit on nearly every shot. With point shooting a .22 (just playing around), I rarely hit even the large spinner. The slugs still land within a foot or two of the target.
g.willikers
New member
In the parlance of combat or defensive training, hits on torso sized targets are considered as good ones.
Small groups are not encouraged, with the thinking that multiple hits on different parts of the anatomy are preferable to repeated hits on the same part.
That's what they say.
Small groups are not encouraged, with the thinking that multiple hits on different parts of the anatomy are preferable to repeated hits on the same part.
That's what they say.
g.willikers
New member
Me again, forgot something.
One time at the range, we had set up a string of 3" steel spinners for .22, spread out like a small plate rack.
One fellow had a scoped pistol with no sights.
Just for fun we removed the scope and tried to see if those spinners could be hit from about 10 yds.
Getting the first one was a chore, but once that was accomplished it was not hard mowing the rest right over.
One time at the range, we had set up a string of 3" steel spinners for .22, spread out like a small plate rack.
One fellow had a scoped pistol with no sights.
Just for fun we removed the scope and tried to see if those spinners could be hit from about 10 yds.
Getting the first one was a chore, but once that was accomplished it was not hard mowing the rest right over.
aarondhgraham
New member
8" paper plates,,,
That's my personal Point Shooting goal,,,
If I can consistently hit an 8" paper plate at 7 to 10 yards,,,
I will consider myself proficient enough.
That should be a torso hit on anything big enough to hurt me,,,
I'm really more concerned about dogs than men,,,
At least I have something to shoot for,,,
No pun intended.
.
That's my personal Point Shooting goal,,,
If I can consistently hit an 8" paper plate at 7 to 10 yards,,,
I will consider myself proficient enough.
That should be a torso hit on anything big enough to hurt me,,,
I'm really more concerned about dogs than men,,,
At least I have something to shoot for,,,
No pun intended.
.
Hope we're not turning this into a "point shooting" vs. sights thread.
It should occur to us that "point shooting" may be necessary in some situations. You can't always see your sights. Dark parking garage. Some stairwells. Many other places--- YOU CANT SEE YOUR SIGHTS. You are going to point shoot.
For a simple concept, it sure is hard to communicate. And, oh yes, when you get older, the eyes aren't what they used to be. Even glasses don't make the front sight much more visible than they are when used peripherally (as in bringing the gun to eye level and focusing on the target).
To paraphrase: Use sights by all means at any distance if you can. Understand that being able to point and hit without sights can be a valuable asset under many real life conditions. Practicing one to the exclusion of the other is is your call.
Not picking on greyson97, but his post is a good one for making my point.
Just my thoughts on the matterr.
Oh, one more thing. I happened to notice the great point shooting advocate, Rex Applegate, on the provided link. Danged if he doesn't have his gun at eye level where his sights most definately are used as a reference.