Does an M14 really "turn cover into concealment"?

A

Andrew Wiggin

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You'll hear the old farts claim that a lot but is it really true?

Sure, 7.62x51mm is more powerful than 5.56x45mm, and yeah, it can probably penetrate more stuff, but are there really all that many real world objects that can stop a 5.56mm but not a 7.62mm? I'm thinking there are a lot more objects that can either stop both or stop neither.

I plan to do a series of tests to determine whether there are any real world objects that can stop one but not the other. This one is a concrete block.

Don't cheat. Make your prediction BEFORE you watch the video.


Link to video of test.
 
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The difference is real, but the large magazine should take care of it. Provided , the target gives you time to do that.

Edits after the video : One block is not a wall. Most of the walls I see here are ten-twelve inches think, not the little four inch block in the test, and have thicker web dimensions. Don't know about the concrete quality. Standing walls are often filled with gravel or dirt.

Now take the concealment/cover to be a car door, small tree, heavy brush, a USPS mailbox, that kind of thing, and let's see the comparison again.
 
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Since both cartridges are supersonic. The bullet with heavier weight & mass should win.

Off to watch the video clip now.

Results: Not what I expected.
Hooray I do own a 223 bolt rifle but not a 308. I've never been fond of the 308 cartridge as is.
 
While the .308 isn't a 50 BMG, it's sure as heck a step up from .223. I got a windfall of 10" squares of 3/8" common steel plate and use them for long range gongs. At 300 meters, a .223/5.56 FMJ will barely dimple while a .308 soft point will leave a serious crater and FMJ will nearly punch through. Also note that a 7mm Rem mag soft point will zip through like cardboard.
I've used a 7.62x51(M-14) in hostile situations and it flat out beat the socks off 5.56 in semi-auto AIMED fire.
 
I don't have an M14, but I have something similar.

I've shot through and through thick wood planks, cinder blocks, multiple metal sheets, five gallon jugs of water, and most things that count as cover. I haven't shot through an engine block yet. I don't think that there is anything in a modern house that would stop it, except maybe a very full fridge that had lots of really dense food (like a big block of meat) in it, and even then it would shred up the dense material/food and then pass right through the fridge.

So my guess it yes, the repeated nature of the fire and the power of the cartridge turns cover into concealment; i.e, first few rounds would destroy the cover, thereby turning the cover into concealment. That's just my hypothesis.
 
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While the .308 isn't a 50 BMG, it's sure as heck a step up from .223. I got a windfall of 10" squares of 3/8" common steel plate and use them for long range gongs. At 300 meters, a .223/5.56 FMJ will barely dimple while a .308 soft point will leave a serious crater and FMJ will nearly punch through. Also note that a 7mm Rem mag soft point will zip through like cardboard.
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At close distances 5.56 will actually penetrate steel better than the average .308 round. M193 will punch through Level III AR500 steel armor which is rated for 2780fps, but it will stop 7.62 NATO rounds. You could of course load up some super light .308 bullets to get them moving fast enough to defeat the level III armor.
 
"At close distances 5.56 will actually penetrate steel better than the average .308 round. M193 will punch through Level III AR500 steel armor which is rated for 2780fps, but it will stop 7.62 NATO rounds. You could of course load up some super light .308 bullets to get them moving fast enough to defeat the level III armor."

How many times are you going to find that material in "real world" scenarios? In addition, I'm not 100% sold on the claim.
 
The bullet with heavier weight & mass should win.
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Not necessarily. Heavier bullets of the same caliber will penetrate better. The key to penetration is bullet construction and bullet length in relation to diameter. The material being shot matters too.

Heavier bullets of the same caliber and construction penetrate deeper because they are longer. But when comparing bullets of different calibers it is hard to say. A larger diameter bullet also has to displace more material in order to get through too. A 150 gr 308 bullet is fairly short compared to a 77 gr 223 bullet.
 
How many times are you going to find that material in "real world" scenarios? In addition, I'm not 100% sold on the claim
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That's besides the point. You pointed out that at 300 meters 5.56 would barely dimple the steel where .308 will crater it, I pointed out that at close range 5.56 will actually out penetrate .308 in steel because of the velocity of the 5.56. When it comes to defeating steel velocity trumps bullet weight, though at longer ranges the 5.56 loses the velocity required to punch through that same level III plate.

As far as not believing my claims, here is a video of M193 penetrating level III AR500 steel armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1K3wCRjcdM

Here is a link to to .308 hitting a level III steel plate at 10 yards and failing to penetrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSbevI-R8Z8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr9gFBLJjv8

Here is a link to their website for a level III plate which states

Level III Rating: AR500 Armor® body armor is Stand-Alone and Multi-Hit capable. Designed to defeat rifle threats up to 7.62x51 M80 NATO Ball (.308 Winchester) at velocities up to 2,780 feet per second and all pistol calibers.

They actually just came out with a Level III+ plate specifically because people wanted something to stop M193 because it is probably the most common 5.56 round.

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-arm...advanced-shooters-cut-10x12.html#.VWSnSkZu1Mw
 
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I've seen .308 blow through a 12" diameter tree which stopped several .223's, even green tipped. so yeah, depends on your "cover"
 
I've seen .308 blow through a 12" diameter tree which stopped several .223's, even green tipped. so yeah, depends on your "cover"
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Without a doubt, when it comes to things like wood or building materials .308 will out penetrate 5.56.
 
I actually watched the video(s). Tubby is hilarious in his wannabe get up right down to his footwear(?).
First thing I'll say is the comparison is void as the plates aren't supported in the same way. ANY bullet will penetrate more against a solidly supported object compared to a "barely" supported similar object.
With this in mind, I refute the outright statement of the 5.56x45 penetrating an object while the 7.62x51 fails. To make the test fair and equal, the plates would need to be supported by the standard wearer's vest against a material of similar weight and consistency of the human body.
In addition, no credit is given to the blunt force energy dump of the .308 compared to .223.
 
All those videos don't matter anyway, all you have to do is look at the website for the armor manufacturer and look at the ratings. Level III armor which is what was used in the videos is only rated for threats up to 2780fps, hence the reason that M193 punches through at distances under 30 yards depending on barrel length, but will defeat standard 7.62 NATO rounds. For .308 to defeat that same plate it would need to be moving fast enough, which is possible with lighter bullets or armor piercing black tips but the example I used was 7.62 NATO rounds. Even green tip M855 which have a steel core will not penetrate the plates at the same distance as M193 because being just 7gr heavier they lack the velocity. So to make a statement that 5.56x45 will not penetrate anything that 7.62x51 cant is wrong.

Level III Rating: AR500 Armor® body armor is Stand-Alone and Multi-Hit capable. Designed to defeat rifle threats up to 7.62x51 M80 NATO Ball (.308 Winchester) at velocities up to 2,780 feet per second and all pistol calibers

Threat Rating: Level III+ AR500 Armor® body armor is Stand-Alone and Multi-Hit capable. Designed to defeat rifle threats up to 5.56x45 M193, 5.56x45 M855/SS109 up to 3,100 feet per second, and 7.62x51 M80 Ball (.308) rifle threats up to 3,000 feet per second, and 7.62x51 AP (Black Tip) up to 2,800 feet per second.
 
My thinking is that the heavier bullet may be more likely to stay intact and not tumble or fragment through intermediate barriers such as concrete, brick, sheet metal/car doors, etc. Although I hear pretty nasty things about 70+ grain 5.56 loads and 5.45mm rounds
 
apples to apples

Be sure and compare apples to apples, ie, .223/5.56 "ball" (lead core/copper sheath) with the 7.62x51mm "ball". Comparing the green tipped steel penetrator 5.56 round with simple lead core FMJ is not an apples to apples comparison.

And I am not sure if there is actually a NATO/US AP/steel penetrator round for the 7.62x51. What does/did exist is .30/Garand ammo ('06) and honest to gosh AP ammo for it. Those 40-50's-60's era AP slugs are indeed formidable.

As there is little practical difference in .308 v.'06, a true .30 AP slug might indeed run circles around the .223 at any range or material.

THAT would be apples to apples.
 
It seems odd that my "counter poster" at 12:18 PM used links to videos as part of his argument but at 2:09 PM comments that "All those videos don't matter anyway". There must be some sort of formula involved that specifies 2800 fps as the "magic number" but if velocity is the answer, will a 17 Remington penetrate more steel than a 50 BMG?
 
It seems odd that my "counter poster" at 12:18 PM used links to videos as part of his argument but at 2:09 PM comments that "All those videos don't matter anyway".
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Well since you said the videos don't prove a thing, I said the videos don't matter when you have the official armor rating from the manufacturer.

There must be some sort of formula involved that specifies 2800 fps as the "magic number" but if velocity is the answer, will a 17 Remington penetrate more steel than a 50 BMG?
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I'm sure there is considering for their Level III+ plate they have it rated for 5.56 up to 3,100fps, 7.62x51 ball up to 3,000fps, and 7.62x51 armor piercing black tip up to 2,800fps. Obviously the weight and material of the bullet comes into play, but seeing as a small .22 caliber 55gr projectile will out penetrate steel at certain distances over the larger and heavier M80 ball shows just how important speed is in defeating steel. Although your tests at 300 meters showed how much a difference bullet weight can make once that .223 bullet lost enough velocity that it lost its potential to penetrate steel like it could at close distances.
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Depending on what the "cover" is, a .22 can reduce it to concealment. That's true of just about anything.

A door that would stop a 9mm (cover) can be reduced to concealment by a 7.62 Tok round, and so forth and so on.
 
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