Does .40 s&w stand for 'Short & Weak'?

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cannonfire

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I know it doesn't actually mean that but I have a friend who seems like he knows what he's talking about when it comes to guns. His father and he collect guns together, which I know that doesn't mean anything but he is a pretty intelligent kid.

When I told him that I bought a Springfield XD .40, he made fun of me calling it 'Short & Weak'. He went on to explain how the FBI created the .40 s&w because the 10mm round was too strong for the MAJORITY (not all, not trying to **** anyone off here) of female agents.

Does anyone know if that is true or not? or is he just talking crap?

And which is a more powerful round anyway? 10mm or .40?
 
There is some truth to that. The .40 is a shortened version of the 10mm case. The 10mm case was being explored by the FBI, but the loading had to be reduced since some agents couldn't handle the recoil. It was then realized that the reduced loading could fit in a smaller case, allowing smaller framed guns, and thus the .40 S&W was born. The 10mm is more powerful than the .40 S&W.
 
If the .40 S&W stood for Short and Weak, why would the overwhelming majority of law enforcement agencies carry it as their duty caliber???

.40 S&W is a very potent caliber, yes it is a minimized 10mm, but it's still effective, and that's what matters.
 
You should have shot both of them right in the chest, then ask if they still felt it was short and weak...:rolleyes:
 
He went on to explain how the FBI created the .40 s&w because the 10mm round was too strong for the MAJORITY (not all, not trying to **** anyone off here) of female agents.
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In the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, the FBI started the process of testing 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition in preparation to replace its standard issue revolver with an automatic pistol. The automatic pistol offered two distinct advantages over the revolver: 1) the automatic offered increased ammunition capacity, and 2) it was easier to reload during a gunfight. The FBI was satisfied with performance of its .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP cartridge ("FBI load") based on decades of dependable performance. Ammunition for the new automatic pistol had to deliver terminal performance equal or superior to the .38 Special FBI Load. The FBI developed a series of practically oriented tests involving eight test events that reasonably represented the kinds of situations that FBI agents commonly encounter in shooting incidents.

During tests of 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition, FBI Firearms Training Unit, Special Agent In Charge, John Hall, decided to include tests of the 10mm cartridge, supplying his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm automatic, and personally handloading 10mm ammunition. The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized it could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within its medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W.

The FBI developed its reduced velocity 10mm load before the decision was made to adopt the 10mm cartridge.

More:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
http://www.pointshooting.com/fbi10mm.htm
 
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The 10mm carries FAR more kinetic energy. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% more, depending on the exact load. Typical 40 loads generate between 400 and 500 ft/lbs of KE (usually upper 400s) while the 10mm generates 700 and more.

To be fair, the 40SW can generate over 650 ft/lbs with the HOTTEST loads.... but the 10mm can generate nearly 800 with the hottest loads and that's still 23% more and that 40SW is VERY, very heavy.

Technically, the 40 *is* a shorter and weaker version of the 10mm, but that's certainly NOT what "S&W" means.:D
 
The first 10mm Auto cartridges made by Norma were essentially a ".41 Magnum" crammed into an auto pistol. My Bren Ten was damaged by this round, and no other than Harlene at Dornaus and Dixon encouraged me to try scaled back handloads.

When the .40 SW came out, there wasn't the selection of components we enjoy today. The only set of .401 casting blocks I had at this time produced a 200 grain lino bullet. That bullet used up so much room in the case that some of the early brass bulged during seating.

The issue to me was the failure of the original loading of the .40 SW to create some form of Frankenstein ".41 SPL." When lighter weight bullets, constructed to penetrate and mushroom for the .40 SW as its own individual cartridge became available, that's when its usefulness was realized.

I don't consider the 10mm and .40 SW cartridges to be "parent and child." Other than their caliber, they have nothing in common, not even their primers.

Some early Pythons had a muzzle that miked at .354 of an inch. With that info, we don't consider those .357 Magnum loads and your average .380 ACP to be related, either.
 
40 S&W stands for Smith & Wesson, who developed the cartridge. The Short and weak is just some guys way of having a little fun.

Compared to full power 10mm ammo there is a grain of truth to it. I'm a big 10mm fan, but feel the 40 gets a lot of undeserved criticism. It is a great round that is good enough for self defense.

The full power 10mm are probably too much of a good thing for most SD situations and are better suited for outdoorsmans uses. A good 10mm round is a good alternative to the 357 mag for guys who want a good hiking, camping gun in an auto instead of a revolver. That is what I use mine for.
 
The .40 S&W is shorter and weaker than the 10mm, so I can see where the name came from, but it is by no means an inadequate cartridge for self defense.
 
I love 10mm! But, how many people actually carry 10mm for self defense? Most people carry "wimpy 9mm", "short & weak" .40, or "fat and slow" .45. That would make 99% of those who use semi-auto guns for self defense idiots according to your friend, I guess, because they don't carry 10mm.

Personally, I prefer "Wimpy 9mm" for cary and even home defense, but I'd be perfectly fine with .45 or .40 too.
 
Detractors of the round like to think that.
Just a quick look at one ballistic table from Hornady
Critical Defense 165 gr 40 S&W 1175 fps/506 Ft lbs
Critical defense 185 gr 45 acp 1000 fps/411 ft lbs
SHORT AND WEAK?????
The slam comes from comparing it to it's parent cartridge, the 10 m/m.
165 gr 1265 fps/551 ft lbs.
I don't call the 40 S&W short and weak, I call the 10m/m the 40 S&W magnum!
 
It only means that to those whose minds are narrow enough that they THINK that they know everything important about firearms.

In reality they don't know jack crap.

It's also a smarmy little way of making themselves feel better about the guns/cartridges they carry. Having confidence in their choice isn't enough, they have to denigrate the choice of others.

Whenever I hear someone call the .40 S&W the "short and weak," I know right off the bat that I'm dealing with Joe Poseur and I'd better watch for extra holes in my target because chances are VERY good he's a lousy shot.

.



"The .40 S&W is shorter and weaker than the 10mm"

As with all things, it's seldom a case of the situation being absolutely black and white.

In SOME loadings the .40 S&W is weaker than the 10mm.

In SOME loadings the .40 S&W matches the power of the 10mm.

In SOME loadings the .40 S&W is more powerful than the 10mm.

As for the "IT'S SHORTER THAN THE 10MM SO IT SUCKS" crowd... If you have confidence, you don't worry about length. If all's you can worry about is length, well... Freud had some interesting things to say about that, and for many of the flapping jaw "short and weak" parrots, they are Freudian nightmares....
 
IIRC, the .40 S&W had its genesis about 40 years ago when a fellow named Paul Liebenberg, then working in Pachmayr's custom shop, came up with the idea for a "Centimeter" cartridge. It was specifically designed and intended for IPSC competition as an alternative to the .45 ACP or .38 Super in a 1911-based platform which offered higher magazine capacity than the .45 and "Major" power factor scoring without the dangers associated with loading the .38 Super to the ragged-edge pressure levels then necessary to achieve that.

Fast forward a few years: Various Federal agencies have adopted the 10mm Auto as their issue cartridge/sidearm and S&W has the contract. There are 'issues' with both the ammunition and the size of the platform. After various attempts at addressing these in piecemeal fashion prove to be less-than-satisfactory, the head of what will eventually become the Performance Center presents an alternative.

The man is Paul Liebenberg, and the solution he presents will come to be known as the ".40 S&W" cartridge. It is essentially an evolution of his original Centimeter concept and offered a practical way for LEAs to have both the ".45 ACP-sized punch" they wanted in the 9x19-sized package that better accomodates a wide range of hand sizes comfortably.

IMO, it was an inspired compromise.
 
Not hardly.

A Speer Gold Dot GDHP weighing 180 gr. and moving at 985 out of a 4" muzzle ain't nothing to be sneezed at.
 
The genesis for a .40 S&W may well go back farther than that.

John Browning, either right before or right after WW I, developed a 9.8mm round that he hoped to sell to the Romanian military in a 1911-style handgun.

It wasn't adopted, and the round largely died. But there are some indications that some experimentation was done on reducing the length of the 9.8's case and dropping it into a handgun somewhere between the size of the 1911 and the 1903. It never went anywhere.

In the 1920s a number of people were also experimenting with .40 and .41 caliber revolver rounds, such as the .400 Eimer. That may have been more inspiration for the .41 Magnum, but a number of case lengths and power levels were looked at. The .400 Eimer never took off, either.

Finally, there is the .41 Action Express, which came out commercially a number of years before the .40 S&W. Once the .40 hit the market, though, the .41 died quickly.
 
Mike Irwin said:
But there are some indications that some experimentation was done on reducing the length of the 9.8's case and dropping it into a handgun somewhere between the size of the 1911 and the 1903. It never went anywhere.
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So even then it was a "shorter and weaker"? ;):D LOL:p
 
It only means that to those whose minds are narrow enough that they THINK that they know everything important about firearms.

In reality they don't know jack crap.

It's also a smarmy little way of making themselves feel better about the guns/cartridges they carry. Having confidence in their choice isn't enough, they have to denigrate the choice of others.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself. :cool:
 
I know personally that he has a couple of .40s in his collection so I highly doubt he was completely dissing the round itself, but rather just trying to show off his knowledge or something... I'm pretty sure he was just calling it short and weak compared to the 10mm, not the round as a whole
 
I saw this in a report where police had to defend themselves first with a .223 and then with 40S&W. You really need to read the whole thing and the PDF has graphic pictures and x-rays of the assailant after the shootout.
 

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