Doctors and Guns Redux

heyjoe said:
i read threads on this subject and wonder how many of you have actually been asked by their doctors if you have guns.
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I have been asked, both verbally and as a question on the patient intake/update form.

I would also like to see documentation on the common assertions that its required by a federal law or agency policy.
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I'm not aware of any "common" assertions that this prying is required by any federal law or agency policy. I'm certain that I have never made such a claim, and I have posted about this problem previously. The initiative seems to be coming from the AMA and the CDC. Yes, the CDC is certainly a federal agency, but I have not routinely posted about them. It's the AMA that bothers me more.

As to the CDC, I think the only documentation you need is the fact that the Congress specifically voted NOT to fund any CDC programs associated with "gun safety." If they weren't meddling into things not associated with disease (their middle name), there would have been no need for the Congress to slap their wrists.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...search-into-gun-violence-doctors-group-says#1
 
the monitoring and treatment program i am in is funded and administered by the CDC and no gun questions have ever been asked going on 13 years now.
 
You are very fortunate.

I get most of my treatment from the VA hospital, and they do ask. The question has also been in new patient intake forms when I have seen outside specialists.
 
Aguila Blanca You are very fortunate.

I get most of my treatment from the VA hospital, and they do ask. The question has also been in new patient intake forms when I have seen outside specialists.
Today 02:29 PM
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yeah i would get tired of that pretty quickly. i also would find that intrusive.
 
The biggest problem is that government wants to prevent death by firearms. They don't care if it is suicide, robbery, accidental, demented mass murderer or a terrorist act. They want to prevent it.

It can't be prevented! at least not without taking away our rights and tracking everything we do 24/7.

I am less concerned about somebody offing them selves than I am about the thug who robs a liquor store and ends up shooting two people in the process. Tying violence and suicide together because they both use a gun is infantile in its simplicity and astounding in its error. The biggest problem with suicide by gun is that it usually works. If you slash your wrists you get taken to the hospital, bandaged up and told to get help. If you take pills to end your life you get taken to the hospital have your stomach pumped out, given stimulants and when you leave you are told to get help. The state gets to take care of you if the suicide is unsuccessful but if you are successful then it's a tragedy.
People use all kinds of tools to commit suicide. They use cars by driving into a wall or bridge or they walk out in front of a car or truck. They use cops - threaten a cop or grab a person and hold them hostage with a toy gun - make a menacing movement and you have suicide by cop. They use kitchen knives, screw drivers and even electric drills! If someone wants to commit suicide the don't think anyone - including themselves care about what they are going through. You can't keep people from committing suicide any more than you can keep them from stealing, bullying, or killing. We don't have a gun problem in the states - we have the same problem with violence here that they do in England or France or anyplace else. Get rid of the violence and you get rid of the problem - and we will still have our rights!
 
ShootistPRS said:
The biggest problem is that government wants to prevent death by firearms. They don't care if it is suicide, robbery, accidental, demented mass murderer or a terrorist act. They want to prevent it.....
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Even if that's true, and it's not a foregone conclusion that it is, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Much of the pressure for doctors to be asking about guns comes from various professional medical associations, and those are private, not governmental, organizations.

In the Florida case alluded to already, the government, i. e., the State of Florida, wanted to restrict physicians from asking certain questions about guns. The 11th Circuit decided that the Florida law was an impermissible abridgement of a physician's freedom of speech noting (Wollschlaeger v. Florida, (11th Circuit, No. 12-14009, 2017), slip op at 31):
..In “the fields of medicine and public health . . . information can save lives.” Sorrell, 564 U.S. at 566. Doctors, therefore, “must be able to speak frankly and openly to patients.” Conant, 309 F.3d at 636. Cf. Trammel v. United States, 445 U.S. 40, 51 (1980) (noting that “the physician must know all that a patient can articulate” and that “barriers to full disclosure would impair diagnosis and treatment”). Florida may generally believe that doctors and medical professionals should not ask about, nor express views hostile to, firearm ownership, but it “may not burden the speech of others in order to tilt public debate in a preferred direction.” Sorrell, 564 U.S. at 578–79....
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Regarding the 1st Ammendment and Doctors:

And I have the right to say "I prefer not to discuss this matter.Its irrelevant to my visit"
Next topic:
I believe it is an appalling national disgrace and a horrible tragedy that (last I heard) approx. 22 Veterans a day are committing suicide.
I'm not a Veteran,but if I were in a VA environment,and I knew any ownership of PTSD would result in loss of RTKBA,there is NO WAY I would admit to any problem. It would be "I'm fine"
And a wall would go up,and I'd deal with my problems on my own.Its the policy that is isolating. Not the gun. Underage gang bangers in no-gun zones can get guns to murder each other with.I'm sure a Veteran is fully capable of re-arming himself.

Instead of some cheap political agenda driven attempt to exploit Veteran suicides ...How do you suppose it is to do 3 or 4 or 5 deployments and get news you are going back? But add to that your kids don't know you and your wife seems different and you are different. Your old job is gone and there is no new one? You hold a baby and the ice with all your emotions frozen in it melts? Why does holding a baby bring grief?
Your body is broken,injured,in pain....How long do you have to wait for the VA??? And wait,and get fed red tape BS and runaround?? Then you see what liesand BS you have been fed,what is going on in America,and,oh...you are being re-deployed.That blast induced traumatic brain injury thing can wait...

Just an ignorant ,non Veteran opinion,but I think treating our Veterans with Respect and Appreciation,some 'Welcome Home" ...still having a Home,job opportunity,and above all else just KEEPING THE PROMISES AND COMMITTMENTS we owe those who have served will go a long,long way towards these Men and Women making the CHOICE to stay in this life and on this earth,because unless they can find that commitment to Life,unless someone puts their arms around them and holds them here,
do you really think disarming a warrior will help him/her hold on to life?
Or have you stigmatized him /her as a freak? Gutted who he is? A disarmed warrior,that society can't trust...He's one of those...How has the press,over time ,stigmatized "Ex Green Berets"
Our own homeland security is worried about Gaston flags and Veterans as domestic terrorists.
The most down to earth,at peace Veterans.....scratch that, PEOPLE I know are Veterans actively involved in shooting sports. Former Green Berets among them.
 
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ShootistPRS said:
The biggest problem with suicide by gun is that it usually works.
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If someone is determined, they'll find a way. Years ago, a coworker friend was suicidal. Our office manager (also a friend) talked him into going into the nearby teaching hospital for an evaluation. He was in for the three days, and they sent him home. He then got in his pickup truck, drove down the road a half mile, and parked the truck on the main Amtrak line -- right where the tracks curved through a cut in a hill of solid rock. By the time the engineer saw the truck, there was no way the train could even begin to slow down.

If you take pills to end your life you get taken to the hospital have your stomach pumped out, given stimulants and when you leave you are told to get help.
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My granddaughter did this six times within two years. When the doctors finally took away the pills, she tried to jump out a window on the tenth floor of a high-rise. Someone who wants to end their life will find a way. Period.
 
Exactly how can the government violate HIPAA and get one's private medical records at any time?
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By requesting them.

Myth #2: Only patients or caregivers may get copies of health records.

This is also false. In fact, there are many other individuals and organizations that can access a patient's medical records without a patient's permission, some legally and some illegally.

Personal medical information can be obtained by anyone who helps you pay for your healthcare, from insurance, to the government to your employer.

It can also be obtained by anyone who wants to buy it - although it may be aggregated and de-identified when it's purchased.
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https://www.verywell.com/hipaa-patients-and-medical-records-privacy-myths-2615514
 
Frank Ettin: "Exactly how can the government violate HIPAA and get one's private medical records at any time?"

Here in New York state the State Police review a central data base of prescriptions searching for drugs prescribed for mental illness. New York "Safe Act" is their cover.
 
I live in MA, and I read that same article with interest.

In typical fashion, the state will bless their proxies as 'experts', and in just as typical fashion, they will silently bully me to answer. MA residents know what I mean.

Also, hospitals and doctors offices have inviolate protocols; if you do not fill out paperwork completely, they get their backs up. I'll be forced to fill out 'the questionnaire' under the implied threat of withholding services or having my insurance not billed.

It is true that smiling politely, nodding my head at the right times, taking the pamphlets and throwing them out in the waiting room costs me nothing (except my precious time). It is also true that being impish by nature, I will ask the doctor to give me some lessons and data and info about chainsaw safety.

It is also true that if anyone understands Massachusetts, this is something that will be built on. Not as some kind of conspiracy, but by the well-meaning people who see it as a success. If an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, then 10,000 pounds of prevention is the best thing to do.

That's not a fantasy land scenario. MA is the same state that convinced people and companies that shipping ammunition to MA is illegal.
 
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And I have the right to say "I prefer not to discuss this matter.Its irrelevant to my visit"
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Either way, its a TRAP!!!

And that, is the primary problem. Certainly we have the right to discuss, or not discuss any subject (outside of a police investigation).

HOWEVER...

Despite the fact that you may decline the subject in a polite, rational, and civil manner, in YOUR opinion, the doctor can write ANYTHING THEY WANT, and that becomes part of your permanent medical record, and WILL BE considered expert testimony about your medical & MENTAL state, at any time after, without any kind of objective, let alone independent review.

And heaven forbid you become the least bit ..passionate.. about your rights..

"When asked the standard questions, patient became agitated, uncooperative, evasive, and could not stay focused on subject..." Or, they could write something even worse...and honestly believe EVERY WORD OF IT!

Simply put, if you answer you have guns, then you are one of those "dangerous gun owners" and are put in one box. If you decline to answer, your reasons are NOT taken into account, only your "unhealthy" refusal to answer "standard questions", and your mental stability is called into question, which gets you put into another box, on the same shelf as the dangerous gun owner box. And, at some point, due to law, agenda driven zealots, or possibly just simple ease of recordkeeping, both boxes will be dumped into a bigger box labeled "people who pose a risk to others" or something similar.

And all this without you being aware of it, and quite possibly without your local DOCTOR even being aware of it...
 
About suicide - yes, folks will find a way if determined BUT - reducing the easiest paths can reduce impulsive actions. That's been shown.

However, this is a different issue from all doctors questioning everyone and taking notes. Counseling in cases of mental issues is a different beast.

The problem is governmental mandates for reporting conversations with professionals and whether that is a deterrent for folks seeking help.
 
HiBC said:
I'm not a Veteran,but if I were in a VA environment,and I knew any ownership of PTSD would result in loss of RTKBA,there is NO WAY I would admit to any problem. It would be "I'm fine"
And a wall would go up,and I'd deal with my problems on my own.Its the policy that is isolating. Not the gun.
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Exactly. I'm sure I have posted previously that one of the standard questions asked each and every time I have an appointment at the VA is "Are you feeling at all depressed today, even a little bit?" And I don't care if my wife just ran away with my best friend, my house burned to the ground, my pickup ran off a cliff and my dog done died, the answer is "Nope, everything's great! I'm just here for a check-up."

The VA is aware of the veteran suicide issue. In typical large, government agency fashion, though, they have adopted a one-size fits all approach. It's to their advantage to diagnose/classify/stigmatize more patients with PTSD, because the more patients they can label with PTSD, the more money they can get for treating it. To the VA it's just a numbers game, and the loss of 2A rights is just collateral damage. You know the mantra: "It's better to 'inconvenience' a few veterans than to miss one we could [maybe] have saved."
 
44 AMP said:
Either way, its a TRAP!!!

And that, is the primary problem. Certainly we have the right to discuss, or not discuss any subject (outside of a police investigation).

HOWEVER...
...

And all this without you being aware of it, and quite possibly without your local DOCTOR even being aware of it...
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I don't want to repeat the entire post, but re-read it, because the entire post is spot on. The problem with declining to answer is precisely that we can't control what gets entered into the record as a result of the refusal to answer. YMMV but, for me, I would prefer to have my medical records just say "No guns in house."

No guns = no reason to discuss guns.

Okay, color me a conspiracy theorist. Just remember, "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching me."
 
...all they need to do is put a disclaimer on the forms that indicates that when you sign you are legally stating things to the best of your knowledge. And they can say it's actually because of prescription drug abuse. But the gun question will be there too, and you have now falsely made statements you put your signature to.
 
Well I am not in primary care or psychiatry, I can honestly say that I will never follow any mandate to ask my patients about firearms. If I ever encountered a mandate, my patients would likely never know about it. I would simply state that the patient denies ownership of firearms. Like most people here, I generally don't think it's anyone else's business...not even mine.
 
Chris_B said:
...all they need to do is put a disclaimer on the forms that indicates that when you sign you are legally stating things to the best of your knowledge. And they can say it's actually because of prescription drug abuse. But the gun question will be there too, and you have now falsely made statements you put your signature to.
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Unless you have a gun listed on some paper trail (insurance, registration, etc), how are they going to prove that you lied? Besides, what is the penalty if you get caught lying?
 
Unless you have a gun listed on some paper trail (insurance, registration, etc), how are they going to prove that you lied? Besides, what is the penalty if you get caught lying?
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That's not the point. Some people do not like to lie on forms that have a legal aspect. Note that I am not saying that this legal aspect exists right this second. I said, at the risk of the faux pas of quoting myself:

"...that indicates that when you sign you are legally stating...".

Getting caught in the here and now is not where that ends. We are entering a fuzzy gray area with this whole thing. I cannot predict what happens in three, eight, ten, twenty years. Can you? You can bet that the form you signed is not thrown out after your visit is over.

What amazes me about the situation you bring up is that the Commonwealth hasn't figured out how to know what firearms I own yet.
 
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