Doctors and firearms owners

""Doctors are just catching the heat this time because it is the topic."
Why is it the topic? What does it have to do with gun rights"

When the CDC jumped in, they made it the topic. Who do they drag out, dust off, and put in font of the camera to dispute Lott's study? Please explain the sleight of hand behind connecting guns and disease. EVERY gun control site on the internet has doctors listed as prime sponsors/members, making a point of displaying the MD behind the name. Probably have some accountants too, but they don't feel the need to quailify it with CPA. Where was all this concern when celebrities were catching the heat?

""Ok, I'll try to keep this civil."
Well, why wouldn't you?" I won't drag the real "heavies" into the discussion, meaning the doctors of WWII infamy or Dr. Death. Their actions in no way reflect the medical profession, although,sadly, some valid results of their research still are used today. 'nuff said on that.

"Negligent physicians deserved to be sued."
Interesting, I would not have said sued,I would have said prosecuted or at the very least sanctioned. No one "deserves" to be sued.

"Accidental deaths/physician = 0.171"
Negligant homicide is a crime, not a source of revenue. I would love to see figures that showed how many criminal prosecutions resulted from this figure.

"Do you know what Non-Sequitor means?"
Sadly, no. I will admit my ignorance. Dictionary.com is presently down.

"Where do they hold such power? "
Look around you. Who holds the real power. The throne, or the person that can extend the time on the throne?

""Sterotype is nothing more than the impression given."
And using that impression gathered from a small sample to draw conclusions about a group as a whole.

AND

"Do you have children? Has any one of them ever had strep throat? Think about it."
For the children huh? Where oh where have I heard that before? This one is always a gotcha line huh.

"You have some pretty far out beliefs."
Like responsibility for ones own actions. Domestic owned companies would remain in the hands of domestics(U.S. Steel springs to mind). Kids can give each other a Midol in school without being suspended. Yeah, those are way over the top.


"I don't know who built this country, but if I am sick, I don't want an amateur working on me."
Farmers, part time soldiers and part time public servants. A few tradesmen too.-- I preferred the response time of the local EMT's to the response time of the hospital staff. 4 min beats 4 hours in my book any day. Course the EMT's don't have 12 years of schooling behind them, but they do have training, put together by doctors.

"Power and influence over what? I think you should worry more about your insurance company or HMO. Thats where the real power lies."Symbionic relationship turned parasitic huh? One can't survive without the other.

"At the last turn of the century, people didn't live much beyond 50" Silly statement. I could fill this server with the names of historical people over 70. A +90 year old Pharoh would be among those names. The present disign limit is 120, but,*sigh* reread, I said someday. There was also a time when it was believed that everyting that could be invented already had, and 25 MPH was the absolute limit of speed.

I will admit there are good doctors. The law of averages applies if nothing else. I will applaud your stated attitude toward your patients. I will note your best regards, and only wish you well in your practice.



[This message has been edited by RAE (edited January 17, 2000).]
 
Let’s see if we can brighten our day a little bit.

Here are some figures taken from the San Antonio Express-News (1/16/00; pg 4J).
The article is entitled “Stop Whining: Good times are here”.
(Unfortunate choice of words, I believe.)

Unless otherwise stated,
the first figures apply to the 1900-1920 time frame;
the second figures apply to the 1995-1998 time frame.

(Average)Life expectancy (in years): From 47 to 77 years of age.
Infant mortality (deaths per 1,000 live births): From 100 to 7.
Deaths from infectious diseases (per 100,000 population): from 700 to 50.

Heart disease (age adjusted deaths per 100,000 population: from 307 (in
1950) to 126.
(What does "age adjusted" mean?)

Home ownership (percent of households); from 46% to 66%.
Electrification (percent of households): from 8% to 99%.

Telephone calls (annual per capita): from 40 to 2300.
(Hmm. Must be when my kids got cell phones!)

Accidental deaths (per 100,000 population): from 88 to 34.

Patents granted: from 25,000 to 150,000.
Poverty rate (percent of U.S. households): from 40 to 13.

High school completion (percent of adults): from 22% to 88%.
Air pollution (lead, micrograms per 100 cubic meters air): 135 (in 1977) to
4.

Agricultural workers (percent of workforce): from 35% to 2.5%.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!



[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited January 17, 2000).]
 
Docotrs have established themselves at the top of the health care pecking order. The buck stops here, in this case. So be it. Somebody has to be at the top, and as a trained representative, who better to fill the spot, is pretty much how I view it.

Next time you buy a firearm, read the 4473, and ask yourself: "Who can deny this application?"
You yourself can.
A court of law can.
The opinion of a doctor(s) can.

Go to ATF and read the GCA of 68 as ammended.
Felons and other prohibited? Wonder how many of the 250K unprosecuted *felons* that tried to pass Brady, weren't really felons at all, but people that had questionable medical backgrounds?

Read the admission forms when you check in to the hospital. You sign away a lot there, in a highly stressful situation. While you sit doubled over with chest pains, shortness of breath, quite a bit of sweat even though it's cold, you'll sign anything. So will your concerned relatives, or I should say especially your concerned relatives. Exactly where and to whom have you authorized this information to be released to? No sign, no treat, thank you! Now drag you a$$ outta here and die somewhere else, OK!

In 1993, 85 Million people in the United States, recieved medical coverage in one form or another from the government. In 1999, over 165 Million recieved medical coverage of one form or another from the government. (Dept of Health stats taken from Clinton's speeches, so don't rely on the numbers for accuracy, but the point taken is the number whatever it is, is considerable, and getting larger). Projections and plans are for 100% coverage of one form or another by 2015.

Dennis, those numbers are a bit upsetting because while people are living longer, the number of people being covered by the umbrella of Medicare/Medicaid is growing also.

No one wants a drug abuser or pusher to have a gun to ply thier trade. The question is when does a drug abuser, or drug dependent become just an ordiary person, taking a prescription medication? Guess my own Valium addicted, idiot father is one. The docs still prescribe Vallium to him, for job related stress, 15 years after he retired. How about the kids on Luvox or some other medication prescribed to control behavior? Last time I checked (back in April, after Littleton) it was 1 in 5 and growing. Who gives them that $hit?(Opps, dangerously close to "for the chldren").

It all pretty much takes you right back to the top, where it rightfully belongs. For good or for bad.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited January 20, 2000).]
 
Nobody,
No, he has not. He is anti gun. How much longer will it be though before those that are addicted to prescription medications are denied the right to own a gun? What is with the current push to make tobbacco a prescription drug? Is it possible that nicotine, a very powerful and addictive substance will fall under that heading? Then after that what? Insulin perhaps?-Although on that one, there may be some validity. I have seen first hand the confusion caused by sugar imbalance, and can attest that it is every bit as dangerous as too much alcohol.
 
Bruegger
As long as the following associations continue to support gun control I will take it personal. As long as doctors support these associations I will take it personal. I've seen a whole lot of people voice a whole lot of vocal condemnation of a retailer for that retailers choice of people to use in their advertiseing. I see a whole lot of people look the other way when they go to a doctor proudly displaying the AMA.
www.tcsn.net/doncicci/anti.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Association for the Surgery of Trauma
American Medical Association
American Trauma Society
National Association of Community Health Centers
Physicians for Social Responsibility
George Gund FundAmbulatory Pediatric Association-
American Academy of Ambulatory Care Nursing
American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of Neurological Surgeons
American Medical Student Association
American Medical Women's Association American Nurses Association
American Psychological Association
American Trauma Society
Association of American Medical Colleges
Congress of Neurological Surgeons
National Association of Children's Hospitals and Related Institutions
Physicians for Social Responsibility [/quote]
 
You just don't get it. Pretending all physicians are anti-gun just because some organizations support gun control is akin to pretending all cops are anti-gun just because they line a dozen of them up behind Klinton when he signs a gun control bill in the rose garden. Nothing personal sir, but you are wrong.
 
Pretending? Forgive me if the connection isn't clear. The AMA suports gun control, and doctors don't support the AMA? Yeah, I can't seem to make that connection.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited January 20, 2000).]
 
OK, here's a real-life story(ies) of my experiences with various MD's. Some a comical, some are not.

Whe I was @ 8 yo, I had to goto a Dentist, an old guy. But to an 8yo, everybody who stands 5 ft is old. Anyway, the Doc must have been having a bad day, cause he impaled my tongue with the Novacaine hypo. OUCH, for 10 secs, then I was drooling for two days.. Oh, he took the tooth out anyway. No joke.

I had appendicitis when I was 19 yo, just out of HS too. Anyway, I goto the local Hospital, and while waiting for the family Dr to show up, I fell asleep. When the Dr. arrived, he asked the nurse if I knew he was there, she said no, I was asleep, then he said, "Good, tell him I never showed up", and he left the building. I know this because this nurse, flabergassed, woke me up and told me this.
So, I get another Dr. and `viola four days later, I'm minus an appendix, but have infection in the abdomen. The attending surgeon then walks in and tells me he's taking the clamps out, to hop onto the bed. He said, "This is going to sting a bit", and starts taking the clamps out. Then he tears open the incision, and shoves in a tube for drainage of the infection. No sh_t!!! No anesthetic, no local, no nothing.

Another time, while in Germany with the USAF, a South American Dr. working on the base treats me for back injury related pain. I explain to her what's happened to me, as she's reading my file. She then asks me what kind of medication I want to help the pain. I tell her I wouldn't have the slightest idea, I'm not the Dr. She responds with, " You have to tell me what kind of drug you want"

My last ordeal was in Ft. Worth, actually Bedford, TX. I had to have a ruptured disc removed, then one from the Air Force deal.
The Dr. was the same age as me, and I gotta tell you all, it was the most pleasant experience I've ever had, as far as Dr's go. I was treated very good by all, including Doc. The procedure hurt like hell, but I have no complaints.

I've been blessed with, what I feel to be, some of the worse Dr's out there, and some of the best.

The moral of all this??? Hell, I could have been a rich man years ago, with the sh_t that's happened to me in hospitals. But, I chose to NOT do that. I went to them for help, and they did help me. Albeit, sometimes I thought I was going to die, rather than get better. But I've made it this far.

Guess there's something the guy upstairs wants me to do, and hasn't told me yet.

best Regards,
Don

------------------
He that suffers his life to be taken, from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.
 
RAE,

I must admit I don't get what you're talking about. Doctor's having absolute power? Is that political power? Economic power? In neither case would they have the kind of autority you describe. Lawyers have far more power and make far more money than docs. There are several lawyers who have made hundreds of millions if not billions from just one case. They then invest some of this money in the ATLA (American Trial Lawyers Assn.) and lobby for extraordinary political influence with politicians who are also lawyers. Private trial lawyers in conjunction with state attorney generals conspired together to extort a settlement from the tobacco companies. Peter Angelos, the owner of the Baltimore Orioles baseball team is going to get between 500 million and 1 billion from the tobacco settlement (Angelos received over 500 million for his asbestos litigation). All the lawyers involved in the tobacco case are getting over $200,000 per hour for their work in this case (Hillary Clinton's brother Hugh Rodham is one of them). In the Pennzoil case one Texas lawyer got over 1 billion dollars. These SAME LAWYERS are going after the Gun manufacturers. You are seriously misinformed when it comes to who has the power: POLITICIANS, LAWYERS, ULTRA MASSIVE CORPORATIONS, HOLLYWOOD MOGULS and last but not least THE MEDIA.

Doctors are notoriously disorganized politically. They tend to be independent contractors. I have several doctors in my family and I know many more socially, and NONE of them give a rats ass about the AMA. Further, they are not involved in other medical organizations. These organizations do not speak for MD's. All the MD's I know are concerned about their patients and their medical practices first and foremost. These medical organizations are just a political exercise for a few blowhards.

As for some doctors becoming "gods" because they extend lifespans to "300"(?)years (actually I think they're hoping for 150 years). That won't happen. It hasn't happened with other medical breakthroughs. Name the doctors who have become "gods" as a result of their efforts. Further you are ignorant of how this research will happen. It won't be individual doctors per se, but Biotech corporations and pharmaceutical companies and venture capitalists that will invest in and develop all future breakthrough cures. The money required to develop these new techs and methods requires massive amounts of capital that won't be funded by doctors.

If some organization or group of doctors were to cure cancer or extend my lifespan by 70 years, HALLELUJAH!! They would deserve my respect and admiration and I would hope that they make BILLIONS of dollars. There are many who have made billions and done far less for humanity. I invest exclusively in Biotechnology and I can tell you there are many interesting and exciting things coming out 5 to 10 years from now due to all the research going on now (cancer, cloning, tissue transplantation, bionics, name any disease, etc.)

[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited January 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited January 21, 2000).]
 
I'm an emergency nurse in a small rural hospital emergency department. The ED is staffed by contract so I work with many physicians-mostly residents. A good percentage are pro-gun...some as much as any on TFL. One surgeon I work with makes no bones about his sympathies: If the government ever tries to confiscate guns, he will be treating the resisters. Some are middle of the road and some are anti gun. One that is pro gun had her brother and sister in law murdered by criminals using guns. It's easy to stereotype.

One thing I will say for the physicians: I've seen physician training up close and personal. I've read of SEAL training. Hell week? Think of Hell YEARS? If you gave me a choice of medical school and residency or SEAL training, I would choose SEAL training with a heartfelt sigh of relief.

I know many physicians whose day starts a 5AM in the hospital. When their office opens a 10 AM they have been working for five hours. These same physicians go home for a couple of hours at 5PM and then are at the hospital until midnight. Then they do it again.

I know physicians who make $200,000 annually.
When you factor in the hours they put in they make less per hour than I do. And I know physicians in their 70's who have done this daily for forty five years.

Yes, there are some that are *******s and some who think they are God. But, taken as a class, there are none who have given more for less.

I've seen physicians work for 48 hours straight. When's the last time you were required and expected to do so?

------------------
Byron Quick
 
"I've seen physicians work for 48 hours straight. When's the last time you were required and expected to do so?"

48 hours straight is against Ohio and Federal law. However as an hourly employee, I am often required to work 100+ hour weeks,with a 4 hour break in between and make no bones at all about the overtime. In retailing, 100 hour weeks and 48 hour days were common. Twice a year, at inventory we worked 48 hour days.There we were on salary. The hourly employees made far more per hour.

Why does the money part of this surface so often? I will admit to my poor choice of wording about the "screwd and sued". I did mean that a suit would reflect negativly on said resident, but not in a monetary way. Doctors as a whole, from my contact with them, as a group, are among the brightest people I have met. I have no doubt that they earn more from their outside investments than they do from their practice. I also have little doubt theey could be financially successful well beyond what they are as doctors. It has little to do with money.

$200K an hour lawyers can still get their tail thrown in jail by a Judge, so money doesn't equate to power there at all.

I may well be ignorant of how research goes but I do know that few people, if any, recognize National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis. They do however recognize the name Salk.
 
The jigs up. You got me, Rae. The AMA is anti-gun, therefore all physicians are anti-gun. I only visit here because I am anti-gun. I only own firearms because I am anti-gun.
Feel free to boycott me.

(btw, did you look up non-sequitor?)
 
RAE

"200K per hour lawyers can still get their ass thrown in jail,"

HUH? Anybody can get their ass thrown in jail. What does that have to do with anything?? Talk about non-sequitors!! (Please look up the meaning of non-sequitors)

While you're at it name me just one of these lawyers that has ended up in jail (for legal malfeasance, not contempt and not murder or the like).

Your arguments wander all over the place. Lawyers may be put in jail (a non-existent occurence. The worst that hapens is they lose their license), ergo they don't have power. WHAT? Even if they were jailed how does that diminish influence? Please start making sense.

Also, Salk is not a "god". What influence does he have? What has he done in the last thirty years that gives him godlike power?

[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited January 21, 2000).]
 
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