Do you understand your rights?

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snacktrack

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Hey do any of you guys out there know any good resources to learn civil rights? I would like to take a course on what my rights are in regards to legal issues. For example, what are cops allowed to do when they confront you, what things cant be asked during an interrogation, etc. Not that I plan on being arrested. But, god forbid I ever get mistakenly blamed for a crime, or if I get stopped in a routine traffic stop, what exactly are my rights? I know the general things in the constitution, but I would like to learn some more practical real world applications.

I remember one time when I was younger, about 18, me and my friends went muddin' in a friends Bronco. I had changed my clothes to something I didnt mind getting dirty, and didnt bring my wallet or ID. There was a construction site where they were going to build a mall that was all mud. We pulled up and were taking the chain from the entrance to drive in, all of the sudden a state cop speeds in. He jumps out of the car and starts yelling at us. He makes us all spread em' against the car and tells us to pull out our ID's. I said, officer, I dont have my ID on me, he yells at me "dont tell me that boy", and he checks my other friends pockets and frisks them and then comes to me. I said, I dont have my ID, I left it in my other pants when I changed. He jams his knee into my back, kicks my legs out to the sides into an almost split, rams his hands into my pockets and dumps everything out of my pockets on the ground, unclips and throws my pager. I was scared to death. I am thinking to myself, omg, this ****ing cop could beat me to death with his baton out here and nobody would ever know the truth.

Anyway, I know what he did was illegal. But I think everyone should know what their rights are. Its like going to a mechanic and not knowing how cars work, and they can tell you anything or charge you anything they want if you dont know any better. I dont want to be like that with my own rights.

I realize much of this is specific to states, but is there any web resources, or even courses offered at community colleges that teach this stuff? ANy help would be appreciated.
 
hmmmm,
preparing to trespass, getting caught, getting your arse handed to you, and then claiming what the officer did was "illegal" ...

:rolleyes:
 
Preparing to tresspass, and yeah...maybe I was also thinking about making an illegal lane change in the future...why not bust me over my head for looking at him funny?

preparing to trespass, getting caught, getting your arse handed to you, and then claiming what the officer did was "illegal" ...
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I dont think that a cop acting in an unprofessional and dangerous manner like that is admirable. If I was back talking him and raising my fists in the air, then I could expect this type of behavior.

This is what makes most people think 75% of all cops are power hungry *******s.
 
Snacktrack,

I read a very useful book by Boston T. Party (yes, it's a pen name) called YOU & THE POLICE!

He covers the whole gamut: what to do if the contact is personal, in your car, in your home, probable cause, free-to-go, detention, warrants and so on. Very thorough and well-done.

Published by Javelin Press in 1996 for $14.95. I buy most of my book on www.half.com for pennies on the dollar.

You would have to bring this up to date with the new laws passed since 9/11.

Best regards,

matis
 
The best area to do some research on is criminal procedure. Do some searches on articles.

As far as getting pulled over for being a punk who is off trespassing and tearing up someone elses property, You kind of deserved it.
 
Interesting. Illegal activity, misdemeanor admittedly, multiple occupants, breaking and entering, (chain removal) NO ID, the "it is in my other pants" line, pagers have been made into deadly weapons, failure to comply with lawful orders and generally just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Interesting perspective of the Trooper following policy, procedure and training.
 
Your "rights" are exactly what The Man says you have as he tells you "up against the wall mother----."
Your "rights" are exactly what The Man says you have, even in a very polite manner also.

Why?

Because the number 1 priority of The Man is to return to his family alive and in 1 piece after his shift is over. Your rights are secondary to that priority. Everyone is a "suspect" until proven otherwise.

I'm not saying this to Slam The Man. I'm saying this because in today's world, you have to accept some level of personal responsibility towards making The Man's 1 priority something you have to consider. You said "me and my friends". That means The Man was outnumbered by at least 3 to 1 by unknowns. He had no idea if you were going muddin', or going there to steal equipment from the site. Put yourself in The Man's shoes. Confronted with at least 3 people would you act like Casper Milquetoast or come on strong and try to seize immediate control of the situation? Remember also - you as a non-leo have a choice of flight - The Man doesn't. He's there to do a job, and unfortunately for the moment - you're his job!

Tell ya a little true story here.

Back in my misspent youth - 1977 - I took a trip to Ft. Wayne Indiana to visit my sister. I was riding my bike -Suzuki 380 GT. After an afternoon of clam bake and a keg of beer, I took in my head to visit Chicago so I packed up and left @ about 6:00 pm. I ran into another bunch of bikers somewhere around East Elbow nowhere @ about 8:00 pm,,got sidetracked for a couple of hours @ yet another party,,, and ended up out in the middle of nowhere in the wee hours of the morning. I was sitting @ an intersection wondering if I should turn right or left, when a Deputy Dawg goes past. No problem. I just catch up to him and ask where the interstate is. I start out after him and try to pull alongside. He speeds up. I speed up. He speeds up more. So do I. Somewhere around 90 mph I figured out this wasn't going to happen, so I backed off the throttle. I thought he was just trying to sucker me into a speeding ticket. All of a sudden, he locks it up and slides the car sideways in front of me. I had all I could do to keep the bike from laying down.

When I finally got it stopped, it was half ways up and half ways down, and I was trying my best to keep 300 pounds of motorcycle from going down across my left leg. I look up and I'm staring down the VERY shaky barrel of a Colt Python, (I'll remember that beautiful ribbed barrel forever - ugliest damn gun I've ever seen!) and being told to "PUT YOUR GOD___ !$!$@%@% HANDS IN THE AIR AND LET THAT $%%%!% BIKE DROP!!" in a very nervous and shaky voice. All that went through my mind was that I was going to die,,and it was going to be a terrible mistake because it would be an accident - the guy was shaking that bad. Whatever kept him from accidentally pulling that trigger,,in my mind anyhow,,was nothing short of a miracle.

To shorten it up. After producing an ID and telling my story, things settled down. The Deputy told me that earlier that week, another Deputy had been flagged down by a biker and jumped by a bunch of others. They beat the poor guy half to death just for kicks. He thought it was going to happen again. Turned out Ok on both sides after the dust settled. Nice guy really. he was more shaken by it than I was. I lit up a cigarette, and he asked me if I'd give him one too. He'd quit smoking a month or so before, but was so rattled he needed a smoke.

Ok to the point. All you know is your side and what you had happen to you. You have zero idea of what happened to The Man, or any of the other The Man's. For all you know, some guys in a Bronco may have beaten a cop half to death, and they were still running around.

Hell, for all any of us know, the cop may have been a real jerk wad. He might be bragging on some cop forum about how he rousted some punks in a Bronco right now. OR he may be a decent guy that walked into a situation he felt needed a strong hand until things were sorted out.

Until the gawd-awful day that all of us have micro-chips implanted that ID us as "good guys", then you have to make an allowance that things like this can happen. I'm not saying that you have to submit to jack boot tactics. You do have to bear the responsibility of making sure YOUR side of things has all the T's crossed and I's dotted. From the sounds of things, it seems like you were on shaky ground as far as entering a chained construction site. The cop did come on strong, but nowhere near the "beating heads" stage.
 
Learn your rights! The majority of people in this country know their Miranda rights, and still do not truly understand them. This is evident in the fact that 70% of cases that end up in court the defendants words are used against him. Do not say anything to try and clear yourself, that is probably the number one rule. Remember, cops are trained to trick you in your words, they will do it. I have seen cops lie under oath while giving testamony, which would be much harder to do if you made no statements.

Traffic stops are a different story, that depends on the state and circumstances in which you are pulled over. Generally speaking the rules are, "be polite, and mostly honest" When a cop asks to search your car, politely tell him "NO".

As for the situation when you were younger, I do not know the whole story, but the cop was probably in his legal right to search you. You were in the process of illegally entering private property, which is a crime. Construction sites are high theft areas, so the search could of been for "thieves tools", or weapons. Again within the rights of the police under the circumstances. He probably could of arrested you and had you charged with tresspassing, which is a misdemeanor and usually only carries a fine. The construction site owners would probably never agreed to press charges, but that does not change the cops responsiblitiy to protect the property in the first place.


caegal
 
Excellent post, Hal! :)

ST: Knowing your rights is one thing, trying to be "legally pushy" to The Man during a stop just isn't advisable. The best thing to do is to know your rights, let The Man violate them all he wants (as long as you are not in physical danger), then take legal action for the violation.

Another point: Don't try citing the Constitution to a police officer. Especially if you're breaking in to private property. :rolleyes: ;)
 
Oh geez, I knew I was asking for this. Really the only thing you can say is, you had to be there. Yes I was with two friends. Actually we weren't doing anything at the time the cop pulled up. We hadnt even took the chain off we just got out of the jeep to look at it. THere was no equipment to steal, just an empty field of mud.

Ok he patted down my other two friends first. They had their ids. He didnt rough them up at all. If he felt we were dangerous he should have called for backup.

I was very polite to him, and said sir, I dont have my ID. I even told him the truth. I said we were going to peel out in the mud a little, and we knew it was wrong. I didnt resist, I didnt, get loud. THere was no reason for him to knee me in the back, and rough me up like that. Being a cop doesnt give you a license to be an *******.

I watch COPS all the time, and I see some officers, who will let someone cuss them in the face, and they will keep their patience, and really seem to care about helping people. ANd I see some who jump at every chance to beat and slam assailants down.

Of course I realize that the man has to go home to his family every night, but by jumping on me like that and kneeing me in the back he potentially ecsalated a situation that was not threatening at all.

Anyway, if you guys feel cops can do whatever they want, you are part of the problem. Kids are kids, they do stuff like mudding, they do stupid stuff. THere is no reason to do what he did, period. He even laughed after roughing me up like that and said, "yeah I used to go mudding too, I know its alot of fun." WHat an *******.

I had no problem with him searching me and my friends and securing the situation. I had a problem with his unecessary use of force and intimidation tactics. I think that some people, and unfortunately its alot of cops, have that mentality that they can push people around. I see that some of you agree with that type of behavior as well. One time my girlfriend got pulled over for making an illegal lane change, and the cop screamed at the top of his lungs cursing at my girlfriend. She hadnt cut anyone off. He just wanted to yell. THere is no excuse for that. You are supposed to be a professional, you should act like one. Imagine a doctor or accountant yelling at someone like that? why do cops have the right to do it?

Thank you Matis for recommending that book, that is exactly what I was looking for. I will buy it and read it for sure.
 
I kinda understand where both sides are coming from. Yes, the officer has a family to get home to and he/she is bound to take personal safety very seriously. But my rights are never secondary to anything...ever.
 
Get a book called "Constitutional Law" by Klotter and Canovitz, or Kanovitz..something like that....You can get it at half.com
 
Irony and contradiction...

First the admission of not knowing and request for information...

Hey do any of you guys out there know any good resources to learn civil rights? I would like to take a course on what my rights are in regards to legal issues. For example, what are cops allowed to do when they confront you, what things cant be asked during an interrogation, etc. Not that I plan on being arrested.
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Then the unqualificed statement of fact regarding the issue about when the legal information isn't know...

Anyway, I know what he did was illegal.
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I really like how the story changed from the original post that said...

We pulled up and were taking the chain from the entrance to drive in, all of the sudden a state cop speeds in.
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then said ...

Actually we weren't doing anything at the time the cop pulled up. We hadnt even took the chain off we just got out of the jeep to look at it.
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snacktrack, it is hard to be credible when you don't keep you own stories straight. No doubt watching COPS makes you an expert. Even so, the treatment you received, as originally described, does not appear to be illegal. Sure enough, some cops think they can push people around and sure enough, some folks think it is okay to B&E and trespass. Since you are into the legalities, by the way, you weren't a kid, but an adult. Just because you were acting like a minor doesn't mean you are going to get treated like one.

So what is it you think that the cop did that was illegal? You were caught committing a crime, couldn't produce ID, and he treated you like a criminal. I really liked the part where you thought he was going to beat you to death with his baton and nobody would know the truth. From what you described, he didn't have his baton out, as he was ramming his hands in your pockets. Your friends were not cuffed and could have split, so I don't know why you think nobody would know if he did beat you to death. Hey man, there was 3 of you and 1 of him.
 
so if someone doesnt have ID, you can ram your knee into their back, kick their legs out as far as they can go and jam your hands into their pockets and throw everything in them on the ground? is that a LE training procedure. when you ask someone for their ID, if they dont have it, they are immediately seen as a danger, and you must use as much physical force as possible to search them.

cool, im glad you agree thats acceptable behaviour.

well, maybe the term illegal wasnt the correct term to use.

i like how all of you people judging me have never ever peeled out in a car when you were a kid or EVER done anything you werent supposed to. I am 29 now, I dont do stupid things like that anymore, I wasnt even the one driving.

What my point of this thread is....police officers use their powers inappropriately sometimes, and sometimes its downright illegal.
I have the courage to say, hey, I dont know all the specifics about my rights. Then I ask, "who out there knows more about this than me" so I can learn and be prepared for something in the future. And also, anyone out there reading this can benefit from the asking of my question. Or wait...or do all of you know everything already and dont need to read these kinds of posts? Its more fun to judge people and be macho saying I got what I deserved for being a punk kid.

This thread isnt about judging me being in a Jeep 11 years ago without an ID. Because, thats all I was doing. In fact we wouldnt have even been able to get the chain off the gate because it was locked, we were trying to get the chain off yes..but we didnt actually get it off. Im not saying what we were going to do was alright. But there was no reason for the cop to do what he did to me simply because I didnt have an ID.

I know many things about science, technology, music and in other areas that if I posted on here some of you guys would not have a clue about. I am new to guns, and police issues, and am learning more about it.To make fun of me for asking questions is pretty childish.

I feel its very important for me to learn about my rights. And looking back to when I was 18, I was scared of that cop, and that is why I am asking these questions now being on the verge of obtaining my CCW permit.

You cant get the sense of his actions unless you were there. I truly believe he was trying to aggravate me so I WOULD resist and fight back so he could knock me out. It was a remote area, and all he would have had to say was, I was resisting when he tried to search me, and he had to hit me with his club to keep me from attacking him. Who are they going to believe, the cop or some punks kids? Thats a scary thing to think about. It happens all the time too.
 
snacktrack, I pose to you your original question...
snacktrack said:
Do you understand your rights?
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He caught you either in the midst of a criminal act, or aparrently contemplating one, depending on which of your stories are true. You couldn't (or, from the LEO's point of view, possibly wouldn't) show any ID. Don't be suprised when you're treated as a criminal.
 
i like how all of you people judging me have never ever peeled out in a car when you were a kid or EVER done anything you werent supposed to. I am 29 now, I dont do stupid things like that anymore, I wasnt even the one driving.
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No one is condoning you for doing stupid things. No one is condoning you for doing admittedly illegal things. What they are saying is that you, yourself, admit you were in the process of comitting a crime, and couldn't produce ID, and then complaining about how your rights were violated because you were treated like a criminal. The cops don't know that you are a good kid, who mom raised right. What they know is that you were breaking and entering and couldn't produce ID. That doesn't look good.

You also mentioned this happened 11 years ago. Is it possible that just maybe the story has grown in your mind?

I can commend you for wanting to learn your rights. I can't commend you for complaining that you were treated like a criminal when caught breaking the law.

I know many things about science, technology, music and in other areas that if I posted on here some of you guys would not have a clue about.
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Yeah? So? That make you special or something? I'd imagine everyone here could make that statement.

I am new to guns, and police issues, and am learning more about it.To make fun of me for asking questions is pretty childish.
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It is good that you are asking questions. But you are the one that appears to be childish when you are getting upset when the answers don't come back the way you expected.
 
Ok you all are simply missing my point.

Let me get this straight.

You all are saying the officer hasthe right to rough me up if I dont have an ID? Since my other 2 friends were not treated like he treated me and were in the same exact situation, and since I was polite and cooperative, that gives him the right to do that?

You keep saying I was acting like a criminal so I should have been treated like one. Is not having an ID a criminal act that the appropriate action to to knee someone in the back against a car, kick my legs out and throw everything in my pockets on to the ground?

Now you will say, well you were tresspassing. Ok so were my friends, why didnt he knee them in the back?

You also mentioned this happened 11 years ago. Is it possible that just maybe the story has grown in your mind?
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No, I remember it very vividly because if a cop knees you in the back, and puts all his weight on you until you can barely stand up, and kicks your feet out as far as they can go without even asking you to spread your legs...you would remember it too.

I give up here, cause obviously you people agree this is acceptable behavior. Its not. He could have went through my pockets without his knee in my back. he could have asked me to lean into the car, he could have put my stuff on the car. He could have acted professionally and he didnt. Really this has nothing to do with me, it has to do with an officer acting professionally. And he didnt, plain and simple. The officer can choose how he acts. I didnt not act threatening, or raise my voice, and try and hide anything.

So, if a police officer walks up to you on the street and sees you doing something he thinks is illegal, and your wallet was in the house, you would have no problem with him kneeing you in the back and putting all his weight on you, and throwing your cell phone across the sidewalk? Fine then, you let him, I prefer to be treated respectufully.
 
snacktrack, i think the reason you are not getting the answers you want is because you are missing a point: we all reap what we sow.
remember the person that got some hot mcdonalds coffee then tried to chug it then, suprise suprise, burned the crap out of themselves. well, what did they expect. then they turned around and sued mcdonalds, all because it is so easy not to take resposibility for ones own actions.
ok, it sounds like maybe the officer was a little heavy handed with you in particular, i don't know, like you said i wasn't there. i could understand your argument if indeed you had just been walking down the street and minding your own business, which wasn't the case. if you and your friends had not been trying to break and enter, you most likely would not have ended up with a knee in your back and a busted pager.

let us quite trying to blame everyone else for actions that we bring upon ourselves.

there is the answer to your question "what are my rights". you have the right to be held responsible for your own actions. you will have to consult the man upstairs if you find the punishment unfair.

ps i have done stupid stuff (lots of stupid stuff) and been caught, not caught, whatever. i can assure you that every one of my actions has caused some type of reaction, and sometimes it came back around and nipped me in the backside. some lessons are meant to be painful.
 
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