You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Do you think they should make a compact blowback 9x19 pistol?
- Thread starter Smaug
- Start date
I have always wanted a light, fast sports car that has the carrying capacity of an 18-wheeler. And is tracked for cross country. And mounts a 16" gun in case I am attacked by zombie dinosaurs. And gets 60 miles per gallon of regular gas. Surely with modern materials such a thing is very doable and I don't understand why car makers just refuse to make what I want.
Jim
Jim
Jim, I've always been of the opinion (but not well versed enough in physics to be sure) that a stiff recoil spring (as well as a stiff hammer spring on some guns) is instrumental in retarding blowback. There was however, a scholarly sounding article I read once in a gun rag, that completely negated the idea that a stiff recoil spring had any effect on recoil. Since I read that article some years ago, I have always wondered if, in fact, the author was wrong. A recoil spring is an energy storing device, but (IMDAO), the elasticity of it also presents an inertia that needs to be overcome, no?
Regarding tough hammer springs, I think the principle there is a mechanical disadvantage that needs to be overcome. This is why I feel that replacing hammer springs for example, in Polish 9x18 P64s, is a NOT good idea because you are reducing the mechanical disadvantage in a small pistol that fires a relatively hot round for something that small.
Regarding tough hammer springs, I think the principle there is a mechanical disadvantage that needs to be overcome. This is why I feel that replacing hammer springs for example, in Polish 9x18 P64s, is a NOT good idea because you are reducing the mechanical disadvantage in a small pistol that fires a relatively hot round for something that small.
My last physics class was in the 1970s, so I will listen to other ideas, but it seems to me that a recoil spring transfers recoil to the frame. The rate at which the transfer takes place may be affected by the stiffness of the spring (but at the speed at which a slide moves I am not sure it would be perceptible to a human hand), but the momentum, it seems to me, would have to be conserved.
Independent George
New member
The problem with depending on a stiff recoil spring in a blowback design is that recoil springs degrade over time, whereas a slide doesn't lose mass. You don't want a gun that can be dangerous if you shoot it too much, or if a user decides it's too hard to rack and replaces the spring.
The primary advantages to a blowback pistol are that it's simpler to manufacture, it reduces the height/bore axis of the pistol, and a fixed barrel is theoretically more accurate. I don't think any of those things represent sufficient improvement as to outweigh the disadvantages.
The primary advantages to a blowback pistol are that it's simpler to manufacture, it reduces the height/bore axis of the pistol, and a fixed barrel is theoretically more accurate. I don't think any of those things represent sufficient improvement as to outweigh the disadvantages.
What is the point?
What is the goal in making this 9mm blowback gun?
There are reasons why a person carries a 9mm.Generally,self defense.
Are you thinking open carry or concealed?
Are you thinking it does not matter how big and heavy it is?
Are you thinking it does not matter how controllable it is?
If it needs a 36 lb spring,how hard is it to rack the slide?
If you tune this handgun for Hornady Critical Defense will it run on Blazer,or ball?
It just might be,OP,that your preferences would like a blowback 9 mm with the size and weight of a Desert Eagle.
ThatsOK. Whatever makes you happy.
I think most folks would rather go with something like a S+W Shield ,or M+P C,or a Glock,or....That are relatively inexpensive,+ or - $500,,that weigh 18 or 24 oz,that are small and concealable,and quite controllable.
If I am a manufacturer,I strive to produce aproduct that the maket wants,that will sell.
The last thing I want to introduce is a turkey,that won't sell.I lose the investment on my tooling,I lose my reputation,and my distributors turn their back on me.They want to move what sells.
You are asking the equivalent of a car manufacturer re-introducing the Edsel,
What is the goal in making this 9mm blowback gun?
There are reasons why a person carries a 9mm.Generally,self defense.
Are you thinking open carry or concealed?
Are you thinking it does not matter how big and heavy it is?
Are you thinking it does not matter how controllable it is?
If it needs a 36 lb spring,how hard is it to rack the slide?
If you tune this handgun for Hornady Critical Defense will it run on Blazer,or ball?
It just might be,OP,that your preferences would like a blowback 9 mm with the size and weight of a Desert Eagle.
ThatsOK. Whatever makes you happy.
I think most folks would rather go with something like a S+W Shield ,or M+P C,or a Glock,or....That are relatively inexpensive,+ or - $500,,that weigh 18 or 24 oz,that are small and concealable,and quite controllable.
If I am a manufacturer,I strive to produce aproduct that the maket wants,that will sell.
The last thing I want to introduce is a turkey,that won't sell.I lose the investment on my tooling,I lose my reputation,and my distributors turn their back on me.They want to move what sells.
You are asking the equivalent of a car manufacturer re-introducing the Edsel,
larryh1108
New member
The real question is why?
The OP mentioned a slide the size of a 1911 as well as a gorilla recoil spring and maybe an extra heavy hammer spring/mainspring. Ok, it can be done but it would not be compact , it would not be light and it would not be easy to rack. So, who would want it and why would they want it?
I doubt anyone remembers but Llama made a blowback version of their 1911 style 9mm pistol in the 80s. 1911 style design. heavier slide. Weighed more than a traditional 1911. Was nicer than a Hi Point but was still a Llama. It didn't last long and I'm guessing because no one wanted one. There is no practical reason to make one or buy one.
The OP mentioned a slide the size of a 1911 as well as a gorilla recoil spring and maybe an extra heavy hammer spring/mainspring. Ok, it can be done but it would not be compact , it would not be light and it would not be easy to rack. So, who would want it and why would they want it?
I doubt anyone remembers but Llama made a blowback version of their 1911 style 9mm pistol in the 80s. 1911 style design. heavier slide. Weighed more than a traditional 1911. Was nicer than a Hi Point but was still a Llama. It didn't last long and I'm guessing because no one wanted one. There is no practical reason to make one or buy one.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I agree there is a market for such a gun.
That is why HiPoint is making boatloads of money.
The people at HiPoint aren't stupid or bad engineers. They have done a very nice job of balancing slide weight to spring strength to get operable direct blowback guns in calabers other people can't seem to get right.
To make it more compact than a hipoint you need either denser material for the slide or stronger springs. Stronger springs are a no-go if you want wide market appeal.
Forgings aren't double the density of castings. I really don't think the difference is nearly what you seem to think. You could probably do a steel slide with gold/lead/depleted uranium inserts to add weight. I'm not sure how pouring molten inserts would work with heat treating. Is zamak heat treated? I guess they could be stanmped in with a interference fit. Those changes would really run up the price even if the heat treating wasn't an issue.
Have you shot a hipoint? I really like the guns and think every enthusiast and most others should own one, but pleasant to shoot they are not. Neither are the other direct blowbacks chambered in a caliber that doesn't start with "2". My opinion, of course.
I don't understand where all the direct blowback rifles are at. the heavy slide and stiff spring issues are both much less in a long gun.
That is why HiPoint is making boatloads of money.
The people at HiPoint aren't stupid or bad engineers. They have done a very nice job of balancing slide weight to spring strength to get operable direct blowback guns in calabers other people can't seem to get right.
To make it more compact than a hipoint you need either denser material for the slide or stronger springs. Stronger springs are a no-go if you want wide market appeal.
Forgings aren't double the density of castings. I really don't think the difference is nearly what you seem to think. You could probably do a steel slide with gold/lead/depleted uranium inserts to add weight. I'm not sure how pouring molten inserts would work with heat treating. Is zamak heat treated? I guess they could be stanmped in with a interference fit. Those changes would really run up the price even if the heat treating wasn't an issue.
Have you shot a hipoint? I really like the guns and think every enthusiast and most others should own one, but pleasant to shoot they are not. Neither are the other direct blowbacks chambered in a caliber that doesn't start with "2". My opinion, of course.
I don't understand where all the direct blowback rifles are at. the heavy slide and stiff spring issues are both much less in a long gun.
You could probably do a steel slide with gold/lead/depleted uranium inserts to add weight. I'm not sure how pouring molten inserts would work with heat treating.
It would work fine, because one simply would not do it. Need extra weight/mass to the slide, fine, easy enough to do.
Simplest method is simply make it bigger. Absolutely works, BUT has the drawback of not being "compact".
Gold for weight is out, for obvious economic reasons, and those same reasons apply to Depleted Uranium, not to mention other legal and PR hassles.
SO, that leaves lead, which is cheap, and heavy. Pouring molten lead into cavities in an already heat treated slide shouldn't affect anything that matters, but using precast weights simply fitted into machined recesses would work just as well, and avoid the entire issue. Also an economic matter, Do it all yourself in house, you need furnaces, etc for the casting of the lead. Buy precast (to your specifications) from someone else means you don't need to buy or lease as much equipment...etc...
Whenever the subject of increasing the pressure in a blow back design comes up, someone always mentions a "heavier spring" as if that would solve the issue alone. Within theory, it can, with practical matters, it does not.
You see, its not just a matter of holding the breech shut, it is a matter of holding the breech shut LONG ENOUGH and then NOT holding it shut.
Inertia is what we use, the mass of the breechblock (or slide) along with spring tension. You need a certain amount of inertia in the system, and if you reduce one part (slide mass) you need to add to the other (spring tension -at rest) to rebalance function.
Trying to get this into the physical size of a compact pistol is no trivial matter.
One of my favorite blowback systems is the old US M3A1 "grease gun". .45ACP, a massively heavy bolt (weighing more than some compact pistols) and fairly light recoil springs. You can cock an M3A1 with one finger, or even by shaking the gun just the right way!
Go to a very light breechblock, and you need spring tension to make up the difference. Go to a high pressure round (9mm vs. .45acp) and things change a little bit more (details), AND then something the size of a compact pistol, which has a fairly small area for one to grasp and things get even more complicated, if you want a gun that people can, and will actually use.
I don't understand where all the direct blowback rifles are at. the heavy slide and stiff spring issues are both much less in a long gun.
yes, and no.
Much less of an issue than a pistol? yes, if shooting the pistol cartridge. Shooting rifle rounds, is a much different matter. My 1911A1 is locked breech, my Tommygun is blowback. Indeed, size does matter.
But what also matters is the size and pressure of rifle rounds. AND timing, again. Timing of the mechanism, always the critical factor. Look at rifle rounds, and designs, DELAYED BLOWBACK is the closest practical system to straight blowback, that works for rifle rounds. The H&K guns with the roller lock system are the best example.
Not locked in the usual sense, the rollers and fluted chamber delay the operation long enough and still are within practical size and weight. Straight blowback system for rounds the length and pressures of rifle rounds hasn't been found to be workable within tolerable size & weight limits.
50,000psi pressures and 2" long cases can be done with a straight blowback system, but not any weight I would want to carry. IT is simply more efficient and effective to use a locked breech system when dealing with that kind of size and pressure.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Well, I thought we were going for a sleeker more refined design. I agree press fit pre-cast lead inserts would be the most cost effective, but I don't think the result would be refined and the exposed lead would cause all sorts of issues real or imagined. I was imagining, but admittedly did no express well, a design with a cavity that was filed then plugged or some similar effect. I'm not saying it is a good or marketable design(mostly due to price), just that if told to design a sleeker blowback 9mm that is what I come up with.It would work fine, because one simply would not do it. Need extra weight/mass to the slide, fine, easy enough to do.
Simplest method is simply make it bigger. Absolutely works, BUT has the drawback of not being "compact".
Well, I am way beyond my knowledge of how it works here, but there are a number of old rimmed rifle cartridge designs in the pressure range of blowback pistol carbines. All the problems with rims in a semi-auto of course. I would think something like 10MM would be pretty tame in a carbine.But what also matters is the size and pressure of rifle rounds. AND timing, again. Timing of the mechanism, always the critical factor. Look at rifle rounds, and designs, DELAYED BLOWBACK is the closest practical system to straight blowback, that works for rifle rounds. The H&K guns with the roller lock system are the best example.
I do remember seeing a 556 blowback design in the past. A one off prototype homespun type deal. Even the designer said it was impractical after hours and hours of trying to get it tweaked. Maybe I dreamed that, but I think it was on the big home build firearm forum.
I have had the priviledge of shooting an old Winchester .401 Self loader.
Off the top of my head,I do not recall the ballistics.It may have been around the 10 mm to 41 magnum range.
It was blowback.
Recoil was surprisingly serious.Out of proportion for the power of the cartridge.
To make this rifle work,to gain the bolt mass,the forend was hollowed out,and an extension of the breech bolt was reciprocating mass inside the forend.
It was by no means a light,handy carbine.
Contrast this to something like the short stroke gas operated M-1Carbine,which could have been made in 10mm,or 10mm Magnum,easily...and IS small light,and handy.
Something like the carbine is more long term durable and reliable,too,as you do not have a 3 or 4 lb sledge of a bolt hammering with each pull of the trigger.
Off the top of my head,I do not recall the ballistics.It may have been around the 10 mm to 41 magnum range.
It was blowback.
Recoil was surprisingly serious.Out of proportion for the power of the cartridge.
To make this rifle work,to gain the bolt mass,the forend was hollowed out,and an extension of the breech bolt was reciprocating mass inside the forend.
It was by no means a light,handy carbine.
Contrast this to something like the short stroke gas operated M-1Carbine,which could have been made in 10mm,or 10mm Magnum,easily...and IS small light,and handy.
Something like the carbine is more long term durable and reliable,too,as you do not have a 3 or 4 lb sledge of a bolt hammering with each pull of the trigger.
With all of the currently unavoidable engineering problems, as well as the uncertainty that it could ever . Succeed. The uncertainty about whether the thing could succeed when presented to the public or fail miserably in the court of public opinion. The absolute certainty that maybe ten to twenty percent of buyers won't even read the manual, much less follow the important restrictions that will be needed.
The most important reason of all is that making it isn't any sort of guarantee that it would sell. The design and development of the pistol would be amazingly painful, it would be so hard to recover those costs and sell it profitably, especially with all of the above mentioned handicaps.
It is very, very probable that many of the companies have done the math,plugged it into a few cad systems, and found out that the problem was nearly impossible to overcome.
You know that there will be boneheads who will stun 147 grain+p loads in it, it won't end well, and they will take it straight to the internet and gun clubs, and the guns reputation would be tarnished forever.
I believe that this product is destined for abject, terrible failure, and depending on how you define "compact", nobody would give the project even a passing glance.
Why do you feel that it should be done,or are you just trying to get a discussion about an unusual idea?
The most important reason of all is that making it isn't any sort of guarantee that it would sell. The design and development of the pistol would be amazingly painful, it would be so hard to recover those costs and sell it profitably, especially with all of the above mentioned handicaps.
It is very, very probable that many of the companies have done the math,plugged it into a few cad systems, and found out that the problem was nearly impossible to overcome.
You know that there will be boneheads who will stun 147 grain+p loads in it, it won't end well, and they will take it straight to the internet and gun clubs, and the guns reputation would be tarnished forever.
I believe that this product is destined for abject, terrible failure, and depending on how you define "compact", nobody would give the project even a passing glance.
Why do you feel that it should be done,or are you just trying to get a discussion about an unusual idea?
I know I'm late to the party but I'll answer your question by asking one... Should someone make a polymer black powder pistol... Just because they can? No? Why?
I get making something just to prove it can be done at times. In a case where new technology makes somdthing possible, why try and make that same thing happen with old technology that had its limitations just to say you did? You won't achieve any off hand accuracy difference over many quality pistols in current production...
I get making something just to prove it can be done at times. In a case where new technology makes somdthing possible, why try and make that same thing happen with old technology that had its limitations just to say you did? You won't achieve any off hand accuracy difference over many quality pistols in current production...
The density of zinc is very close to the density of steel. With that in mind, you won't really be able to get much smaller than a Hi Point.
You could possibly use lead or tungsten inserts to increase the mass of the slide, but where would you put them? There isn't a lot of extra meat in the slide that can be scooped out. You can make the slide larger to house them, but that seems to be a delicate balance.
I think the bigger question is what's the point? The Browning tilt-barrel system is well established and well proven. It's also very simple, even to the point of elegance. The barrel just gets cammed around a little by a pin that's already there rather than being pinned in place.
Also, there are already 9mm semiautomatics in the PPK size range, and many of them are even smaller. Some significantly so. Many of them are also quite affordable.
What would a direct blowback accomplish that a Browning tilt-barrel wouldn't? Even if you glued some tungsten cheeks on the pistol slide and got it to work, chances are that recoil would be excessive in your proposed size.
You could possibly use lead or tungsten inserts to increase the mass of the slide, but where would you put them? There isn't a lot of extra meat in the slide that can be scooped out. You can make the slide larger to house them, but that seems to be a delicate balance.
I think the bigger question is what's the point? The Browning tilt-barrel system is well established and well proven. It's also very simple, even to the point of elegance. The barrel just gets cammed around a little by a pin that's already there rather than being pinned in place.
Also, there are already 9mm semiautomatics in the PPK size range, and many of them are even smaller. Some significantly so. Many of them are also quite affordable.
What would a direct blowback accomplish that a Browning tilt-barrel wouldn't? Even if you glued some tungsten cheeks on the pistol slide and got it to work, chances are that recoil would be excessive in your proposed size.