Do you think most firearms failures are gun, operator, or ammo related?
- Thread starter Playboypenguin
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ice monkey
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I have had some bad luck with handguns. Two Bersa .380acp’s broke on me, and a Tomcat broke on me.
The Bersa … well I haven’t a clue what was going on there, but the Beretta - I think it’s safe to say the Buffalo Bore ammo was to blame for the frame cracking.
The replacement Inox model will sometimes not feed hollow points. Guess I should smooth out the ramp.
The Bersa … well I haven’t a clue what was going on there, but the Beretta - I think it’s safe to say the Buffalo Bore ammo was to blame for the frame cracking.
The replacement Inox model will sometimes not feed hollow points. Guess I should smooth out the ramp.Operator error is a big catch-all. The operator did not read the manual and fed the wrong type ammo into the gun. Is it ammo error or operator error? The operator failed to properly lube the gun. It failed. Is it manufacturing error or operator error? The gun was never cleaned/cleaned properly. It broke. It is manufacturer or operator error? Unless there is a defect in manufacturing, I would think that operator error plays a major part. Some guns are designed not to take certain types of ammo and it states so in the manual. Draw your own conclusions.
It really depends on how you classify something as ammo, operator, or mechanically induced. For example, my older (1967 mfr) Walther PP sometimes has a bit of trouble with US made .32 Auto ammo (particularly WWB flat-nosed 71grn FMJ) but runs flawlessly with the slightly hotter European-spec ammo like S&B, Fiocchi, or Prvi Partizan nor with self-defense ammo (though admittedly the only JHP's I've ever bothered to run through it are Winchester 60grn Silvertips). Some might say that a mechanically induced failure, but since the gun runs 100% with the type of ammo it was designed for (hotter Euro spec), I'm more inclined to say it's operator induced for trying to feed it wimpy U.S. spec ammo.
Likewise, what does one classify a magazine induced failure as? I've seen more quality guns that wouldn't run right because of the junky magazines (even though the mags are often supposed to be a "good" brand) that were stuck in them than I like to remember. Usually, switching to a higher quality mag cures the problem. My dad's AR-15 is a prime example of this as it's a jam-o-matic with Colt mags but flawless with Magpul or Orlite mags. So, is that a mechanically induced failure or is it the operator's fault for sticking a substandard mag in the gun?
Likewise, what does one classify a magazine induced failure as? I've seen more quality guns that wouldn't run right because of the junky magazines (even though the mags are often supposed to be a "good" brand) that were stuck in them than I like to remember. Usually, switching to a higher quality mag cures the problem. My dad's AR-15 is a prime example of this as it's a jam-o-matic with Colt mags but flawless with Magpul or Orlite mags. So, is that a mechanically induced failure or is it the operator's fault for sticking a substandard mag in the gun?
ice monkey
New member
You got me 45 Gunner 
. 100% right! With regard to my Tomcat … I didn’t read the manual.
. 100% right! With regard to my Tomcat … I didn’t read the manual.FrankenMauser
New member
To add to my previous post:
Many, many of the "bad ammo" cases I hear about are very easily traced to improper use, handling, or storage. (It may be bad ammo now, but probably wouldn't be, if not for the actions of a person.) Very rarely, do I see a case where I can only fault the ammo.
Many, many of the "bad ammo" cases I hear about are very easily traced to improper use, handling, or storage. (It may be bad ammo now, but probably wouldn't be, if not for the actions of a person.) Very rarely, do I see a case where I can only fault the ammo.
Over the years and through all the guns I've owned (other than a POS Taurus M85 I picked up and quickly traded off, timing issue) I've only had about 3 or 4 failures. They were in autos and were failures to fully cycle. One was improper grip on a P3AT after about 150 rounds, I was tired. The other were FTE and I still blame those on operator error. I was loading up some light loads to use on steel plate and they were simply too light to fully cycle.
If we're talking stoppages, as opposed to catastrophic failures...
... then the stoppages I've encountered were caused by operator error, once - at the time, my P220 had Hogue rubber grips that extended a bit below the lip of the magazine well, and I had failed to fully insert the magazine - it was flush with the Hogues, but not with the mag well. (Changed out those grips for some smooth Hogue cocobolos, and the potential for that problem went away.)
Others were caused by a combination of magazine springs (my Kahr PM9; replaced the springs and the problem went away) and a magazine the gun just didn't like (the 7rd mag for the Kahr - I've heard that any little finger pressure on the mag extension could cause hiccups - I traded that mag for a 6 rounder with a guy who knew my 7 wasn't working for me - he felt it was worth the risk, since his PM9 liked 7rd mags).
Not sure why my SIG C3 kept having FTRB issues, but after checking on TFL and the 1911 forum, I saw that C3's of that year and earlier were having a lot of those; I eventually traded the C3 for another P series SIG.
I never had a stoppage with my old 92FS Centurion. Never had one with my P239. Never have had one with an M9 on a qualification course. Never have had one yet with my DW CBOB (although that's still new). Never had one with my CZ PCR. Only had some with my CZ75B when I intentionally tried to induce them, by not cleaning the gun, to see how long it would take. Problems only started when the feed ramp went past "fouled" to pretty much "sludged."
A friend of mine has had several that were ammo related, as he was learning to handload. His initial runs of .45ACP were too weak to cycle his pistol. The third batch and subsequent have been fine.
... then the stoppages I've encountered were caused by operator error, once - at the time, my P220 had Hogue rubber grips that extended a bit below the lip of the magazine well, and I had failed to fully insert the magazine - it was flush with the Hogues, but not with the mag well. (Changed out those grips for some smooth Hogue cocobolos, and the potential for that problem went away.)
Others were caused by a combination of magazine springs (my Kahr PM9; replaced the springs and the problem went away) and a magazine the gun just didn't like (the 7rd mag for the Kahr - I've heard that any little finger pressure on the mag extension could cause hiccups - I traded that mag for a 6 rounder with a guy who knew my 7 wasn't working for me - he felt it was worth the risk, since his PM9 liked 7rd mags).
Not sure why my SIG C3 kept having FTRB issues, but after checking on TFL and the 1911 forum, I saw that C3's of that year and earlier were having a lot of those; I eventually traded the C3 for another P series SIG.
I never had a stoppage with my old 92FS Centurion. Never had one with my P239. Never have had one with an M9 on a qualification course. Never have had one yet with my DW CBOB (although that's still new). Never had one with my CZ PCR. Only had some with my CZ75B when I intentionally tried to induce them, by not cleaning the gun, to see how long it would take. Problems only started when the feed ramp went past "fouled" to pretty much "sludged."
A friend of mine has had several that were ammo related, as he was learning to handload. His initial runs of .45ACP were too weak to cycle his pistol. The third batch and subsequent have been fine.
Agreed and agreed! Imo, way too many times owners make excuses for gun-related problems. Whereas there's no doubt that failures occur due to ammunition and operator related issues; bad magazines, improper lubrication, bad ammunition, weak springs, insufficient "break-in, dirty magazines/guns, and, of course, "limp-wristing" are no more than cover stories for brandwashed owners desperately looking to absolve their favorite gun from any mechanical deficiency blame.
That said, I've been known to gloss over some pertinent parts of an owner's manual or two...
insman1132
New member
One of the gun manufacturers wrote recently that in the case of small automatic's the ejection failure was almost always caused by the shooter not holding the gun solidly enough when he fired it. Anybody experienced this?
I've had a rash of FTF's recently from some ammo of dubious age that I bought off a guy cheap. In fact, I wondered why so cheap? The ammo is CCI Blazer 380 auto 95 grain TMJ (the bullets appear to be copper-washed or copper jacketed) round nose. The box says these cartridges are Berdan primed and that the cases are made of an alloy (which looks like plain aluminum to me).
The problem is that I can't be sure its the ammo that's the problem (although the primers on the FTF rounds were all indented deeply enough by the firing pin that it looked to me like they should have fired). The reason I'm not sure it's the cartridges though is because the gun I've been trying to shoot them in is a Kel-Tec P 3AT (second generation). Although I've had no trouble with this gun before, I haven't really shot it enough to know it's not the problem, and I am aware that the P 3AT Kel-Tec has been reported by a few other forum members as a model that HAS caused them some problems.
How do I know which element was to blame for these FTF's, the cartridge or the gun? You will note that I am omitting operator error as a possible cause because, hey! It ain't MY fault. I'm pretty sure of that. Except I did buy the gun and the ammo too. (That WAS my fault.)
The problem is that I can't be sure its the ammo that's the problem (although the primers on the FTF rounds were all indented deeply enough by the firing pin that it looked to me like they should have fired). The reason I'm not sure it's the cartridges though is because the gun I've been trying to shoot them in is a Kel-Tec P 3AT (second generation). Although I've had no trouble with this gun before, I haven't really shot it enough to know it's not the problem, and I am aware that the P 3AT Kel-Tec has been reported by a few other forum members as a model that HAS caused them some problems.
How do I know which element was to blame for these FTF's, the cartridge or the gun? You will note that I am omitting operator error as a possible cause because, hey! It ain't MY fault. I'm pretty sure of that. Except I did buy the gun and the ammo too. (That WAS my fault.)
Yeah, except that's an unneccesary additional expense to add to the cost of fixing the gun, assuming that the problem turns out to be the gun. I actually suspect the headspacing of the ammo, and I was hoping that somebody with something besides a P3AT would report similar problems using this ammo (which to me would indicate an ammo problem) or else that somebody would report that they've fired thousands of rounds of this stuff through Kel-Tecs and other pistols with no problems, which would indicate no headspace problems (for them anyway).
DG45...
... it's only an "additional expense" if you never plan to shoot more than the ammo you have on hand.
IE, you're eventually going to buy more ammo, anyway, so don't look at it as a repair expense, just a normal expense.
And if the other ammo functions properly, then you've saved gunsmith fees.
... it's only an "additional expense" if you never plan to shoot more than the ammo you have on hand.
IE, you're eventually going to buy more ammo, anyway, so don't look at it as a repair expense, just a normal expense.
And if the other ammo functions properly, then you've saved gunsmith fees.
Among new shooters especially - I see more operator errrors than anything else.
Probably the most common things I see - are improper mag insertion, touching mag release on recoil, limp wristing, improper safety manipulation, failure to reset the trigger properly, etc .... ( a lot of rookie mistakes ...)
Probably the most common things I see - are improper mag insertion, touching mag release on recoil, limp wristing, improper safety manipulation, failure to reset the trigger properly, etc .... ( a lot of rookie mistakes ...)