Do you grapple?

[Lohman446]

I'm going to disagree on a point. If you and your partner can train at 100% on a regular basis and then smile and walk away in five minutes you are practicing a sport. Now that sport may have some great real world application but it's still a sport. In my opinion you want to be able to do as much damage as possible to your attacker with as little movement as possible. Few people are well enough trained to grapple an opponent and not have either party injured in a situation where force, outside of agreed upon competition or practice, is justified.

With that said chose the style that you enjoy enough and practice with people you will enjoy being around so you practice

Step one that anyone can do that others have mentioned: walk with your head up and aware. This allows you to retreat before the confrontation.

Step two: avoid escalation. That guy that says he can kick your butt may be pacified by agreement

Step three: avoid flashy or expensive jewelry, watches, and even vehicles to a degree. No one is going to attempt to kidnap for ransom the guy driving a 1979 Pinto (take that to whatever degree you want)

Step four: if possible be in reasonable physical condition. Many crimes are crimes of opportunity. Do not be the easiest target

 

[adamBomb]

A fight per se is the last thing in which one wants to engage, ever. If one cannot avoid, evade, and/or escape, one will have to defend oneself, and the only really important thing to know is how to keep an assailant from preventing one from doing so.

Definitely. Its one of the reasons that I think grappling with a bit of boxing/muay thai is about the best you can get. Grappling is great because it teaches you to get out of the worst situations (ie getting bear hugged from behind, mounted, taken down to the ground, put in a head lock, choked, etc.) Being able to escape from the most vulnerable positions against someone who is much stronger and bigger than you is a nice tool to have in your arsenal. Its actually what I do when I work with newbies on their first night or trial course. I put them in those exact position I just explained and ask them to get out of them. They never can because I know what Im doing. Then I ask them to get me in those positions and hold me the best they can. I escape each one in about 1 second. This is usually enough to show them why grappling is great for self defense. Keep in mind I am 160 pounds so these guys usually outweigh me by 30-50 pounds on average and think they are going to be able to destroy me.

 

[Ton]

I think the main point I was trying to make is that while grappling is a great skill set to have, if you are training purely for self defense reasons it is just a single component of your system and has limited application.

Real fights don't happen in a gyms or rings. Real fights don't often happen in bars when two idiots decide they don't like each other. Real fights happen when someone or someone(s) of an unknown age, gender, size, mental state, fighting capability, and weapon access decide for an unknown reason to inflict harm upon you or your family at an unknown time and place.

The reason the police generally survive 20 to 30 year careers of dangerous encounters with dangerous people isn't because they are Jack Bauer and can walk into a martial arts gym and immediately be better than everyone there. The vast majority can't. Anybody who regularly practices any art will be better than somebody who does not. But police repeatedly win the fights they get in for two simple reasons: being overly prepared and over reacting. Pepper spraying somebody who is non compliant, tasing somebody who squares up to you, getting more people on board, etc.

Again, if you enjoy grappling, it is a fantastic skill to have, but it is a single component of a vast system that includes situational awareness, location selection, deescalation, marksmanship and weapon handling, where and how you carry, non lethal means of dealing with a threat, etc.

I used to grapple quite a bit. When training often, I got much better than the average joe, but also had the enjoyable experience of rolling with people who were ALOT better than me. I remember tapping repeatedly when a 100 lb, 1 legged individual I would wrap me up like a christmas present and put me a blood choke every time. On the surface he seemed like a harmless little dude, but as soon as he was on the ground with you suddenly it was like you were trying to wrestle an engine block.

Today, if I found myself rapidly approaching a similar situation, I would not waste time and important energy trying to wrestle back the much more skilled fighter, I would focus entirely on escape and weapon deployment. If I could not access my gun, which would have been likely in the situations I was in, I would be digging hard for my knife, and spend the rest of my energy trying to stay out of any sort of choke hold.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Folks,

Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?

I mean, you guys want to spend most of your training time on the ground in some kind of 'mano-to-mano' scenario where they have no weapons and obey the rules of the game? That's your plan?

Deaf

 

[stonewall50]

Folks,



Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?



I mean, you guys want to spend most of your training time on the ground in some kind of 'mano-to-mano' scenario where they have no weapons and obey the rules of the game? That's your plan?



Deaf

Let's say I break bad (don't worry...I won't...I hated that show): if I were to attack someone...I want to knock them down. I want to take them off their feet. And then I want to put the boots to them. We can talk all day about knives and guns and having plans and what we plan to do...but like it or not...getting knocked down is a real possibility if someone attacks you. What do you do then?

Basically?

http://youtu.be/dclfBro8ews

That video sums up the way I feel people should learn to grapple. You don't have to do what I do. I learn to choke people with their clothing. I learn submissions. You don't have to submit me to beat me in a real fight. You just have to keep me from keeping you down.

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it.

 

[stonewall50]

I think the main point I was trying to make is that while grappling is a great skill set to have, if you are training purely for self defense reasons it is just a single component of your system and has limited application.



Real fights don't happen in a gyms or rings. Real fights don't often happen in bars when two idiots decide they don't like each other. Real fights happen when someone or someone(s) of an unknown age, gender, size, mental state, fighting capability, and weapon access decide for an unknown reason to inflict harm upon you or your family at an unknown time and place.



The reason the police generally survive 20 to 30 year careers of dangerous encounters with dangerous people isn't because they are Jack Bauer and can walk into a martial arts gym and immediately be better than everyone there. The vast majority can't. Anybody who regularly practices any art will be better than somebody who does not. But police repeatedly win the fights they get in for two simple reasons: being overly prepared and over reacting. Pepper spraying somebody who is non compliant, tasing somebody who squares up to you, getting more people on board, etc.



Again, if you enjoy grappling, it is a fantastic skill to have, but it is a single component of a vast system that includes situational awareness, location selection, deescalation, marksmanship and weapon handling, where and how you carry, non lethal means of dealing with a threat, etc.



I used to grapple quite a bit. When training often, I got much better than the average joe, but also had the enjoyable experience of rolling with people who were ALOT better than me. I remember tapping repeatedly when a 100 lb, 1 legged individual I would wrap me up like a christmas present and put me a blood choke every time. On the surface he seemed like a harmless little dude, but as soon as he was on the ground with you suddenly it was like you were trying to wrestle an engine block.



Today, if I found myself rapidly approaching a similar situation, I would not waste time and important energy trying to wrestle back the much more skilled fighter, I would focus entirely on escape and weapon deployment. If I could not access my gun, which would have been likely in the situations I was in, I would be digging hard for my knife, and spend the rest of my energy trying to stay out of any sort of choke hold.

And that is what I'm looking to see. Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

 

[Deaf Smith]

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it

.

In such as Krav Maga, which I spent some time doing, they teach you the basics of grappling and then they tell you to avoid the ground if you can, but if you can't, do everything, and use anything, to break contact once on the ground. They teach that once on the ground you are vulnerable to attacks by others as well as anyone who is stronger. So, such as spralling or rolling through the fall is what you use. For you see the object is to survive, not to get a submission hold. Submission holds only work on one attacker. ONE.

This ain't about neglect, this is about how much emphasis should be placed on it in training.

Deaf

 

[Lohman446]

And that is what I'm looking to see. Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

I think the vast majority of individuals on this forum likely realize that. I think it is a matter of perspective. When faced with an aggressive attacker I see three options: (1) retreat - this is by far my most preferred option (2) concede to the demands of my attacker if they do not threaten my safety or that of those I have a moral obligation to defend (3) deploy as overwhelming force as I can possibly deploy to end the aggressive actions as quickly as possible.

I have a great preference for option 1. Because I believe that the use of overwhelming force is always a negative action (please note there is a difference IMO between a negative action and one that is wrong or unjustified) I also greatly prefer option 2 over option 3.

That being said I think we all need to be aware of contact fighting that does not involve a firearm. If someone draws a knife on me at 30 feet outside of my house deploying my firearm and using overwhelming force would likely have drastic legal consequences. However history teaches me that if they are much closer I have to have an option other than my firearm for creating distance.

Being forced to grapple is, to me, a nightmare scenario. Distance is my friend and any contact fighting I use is going to be in an attempt to gain distance or movement in order to retreat or use a firearm. Further because I am not of means to make kidnapping for ransom a likely motive for my attacker I cannot envision any scenario where my attacker is able to close on me and put me in any type of hold where he or she would not have simply deployed overwhelming force. No one is going to walk up behind me and suddenly put me in some hold. Anyone willing to cross that line and able to approach me that close without raising my suspicion is likely to stab / shoot / club me.

Maybe I am wrong but focusing on grappling for self defense is to me of somewhat questionable value. Even focusing on anything but the most rudimentary of contact fighting is, again for defensive use, of somewhat suspect value. Now if you enjoy training in those things for other reasons great - do it. If you are a peace office or work in the security industry you have different goals than I do in regards to confrontations and need more skills and I understand that. For the armed citizen concentrating on grappling is likely not where I would spend my limited training time, money, and effort.

 

[adamBomb]

Question.... what if you grapple and the other guy's friend shows up? Or he pulls a knife and sticks it in your ribs or leg? Or bites? Grabs your junk? Or breaks contact and grabs a chair/tire iron/lamp/rock?

I can come up with scenarios all day that make every form of fighting useless. What if you have your glock in hand but a gang of trained assassins shows up with 20 fully auto machine guns? Even in your scenario a good grappler would be able to avoid/get out of that situation much better than a non trained person.

My entire premise is that it is unwise to neglect knowing how to come back from a very bad position. And if you don't know how...you won't be coming back from it.

Exactly. Being able to recover from the worst positions is very useful.

Do people know how to even recognize they are going from bad to worse if they got forced into that situation? Just "fighting hard" isn't going to keep you out of trouble. Fighting correctly will.

No people do not even know what bad positions are. If you are avoiding going to ground during a struggle your weight is going to be all over the place because you wont know how it should be. I will toss them on the ground in about 2 seconds with a judo/wrestling hip toss.

This ain't about neglect, this is about how much emphasis should be placed on it in training.

Enough that you could defend the takedown against a person who has a few years of wrestling experience but may not have trained in years. There are so many kids who wrestled that can take you down pretty fast even though they havent trained in 10 years. Its not easy to avoid the takedown. You need 1-2 years of continuous training be even be moderately good at it unless you are a phenom type athlete who can pick it up in a few months. A few self defense classes on the subject wont help very much at all. This is one of the problems with grappling - it takes a lot of time to learn.

Maybe I am wrong but focusing on grappling for self defense is to me of somewhat questionable value. Even focusing on anything but the most rudimentary of contact fighting is, again for defensive use, of somewhat suspect value.

I have two thoughts on this:

1. You are more likely to use grappling then EVER using your firearm unless you are LEO or in the military. Why? You have a much greater chance that uncle joe will get drunk and out of control at the summer BBQ. Being able to restrain someone without knocking them out is a very good skill to have. Its not that bad things dont happen but the chances of these kinds of things are usually greater than SHTF scenarios. Having said that my buddy who is a navy seal said that they learned that if they were fighting without their gun they were probably dead already. But that was during combat.

2. Any form of self defense is probably something none of us will ever use therefore there is no reason to train it. But none of us here believe that which is why we are training. We are training for that maybe or one time situation where it could be useful. Where should you focus your efforts? Its up to you. Some people build bunkers. Some learn hand to hand combat. Some learn to survive in the woods. etc. Some learn some form of all of it. I personally train hand to hand combat. I train with firearms. I train for survival. I train first aid.

 

[Lohman446]

1. You are more likely to use grappling then EVER using your firearm unless you are LEO or in the military. Why? You have a much greater chance that uncle joe will get drunk and out of control at the summer BBQ. Being able to restrain someone without knocking them out is a very good skill to have. Its not that bad things dont happen but the chances of these kinds of things are usually greater than SHTF scenarios. Having said that my buddy who is a navy seal said that they learned that if they were fighting without their gun they were probably dead already. But that was during combat.

I think a lot of times when you have differing views it comes down to a simple difference and I think you have just hit on it. I am a relatively anti-social person by nature and do not do well in large or protracted social situations. For me, or even those around me, to have more than a drink or two would be decidedly out of character and I might have two drinks a month. Once behavior even hints towards getting out of control "oh look 'Uncle Joe' is having his third bear" I simply gather my kids and leave.

The scenario you describe is extremely unlikely to happen in my lifestyle. If I am having to make physical contact with anyone but my children I am in a situation where the use of overwhelming force is justified. There is no "uncle Joe" situation that is a concern for me.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by adamBomb:

You are more likely to use grappling then EVER using your firearm unless you are LEO or in the military. Why? You have a much greater chance that uncle joe will get drunk and out of control at the summer BBQ. Being able to restrain someone without knocking them out is a very good skill to have. Its not that bad things dont happen but the chances of these kinds of things are usually greater than SHTF scenarios.

Unless you are LEO, it is most unlikely that you will ever by presented with a lawful reason to restrain anyone.

The are exceptions--a family member having a seizure, for example--but they are not at all common.

Once one has elected to engage in some kind of a fight to restrain someone, ones's chance of prevailing in a self defense claim, should things turn sour, will be very much impaired.

The chances of having to employ deadly force for self defense on any one day are extremely remote. The chances of having to do so at least once in a lifetime are much higher. The consequences of not being able to do so should the need arise can be extremely severe.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Strange, I have one burglar and one purse snatched to my credit. The burglar was stealing from my parent's house while I was in college. I used a Colt Cobra to hold him at bay. The purse snatcher was in the Virgen Islands when my wife and I were on our honeymoon. Two of us ran the guy down. The other guy bear hugged 'em while I applied a wrist lock. The purse snatcher kept screaming, "let go of my hand" (well I WAS a bit enthusiastic...) We didn't "go to the ground".

There was no "grappling". Even in the fights I was in while in high school there was no grappling. Does that mean it does not happen? No.

But go look at "YouTube" and search for "street fights", and you will see this 85 percent thing is hokie.

Deaf

 

[stonewall50]

.



In such as Krav Maga, which I spent some time doing, they teach you the basics of grappling and then they tell you to avoid the ground if you can, but if you can't, do everything, and use anything, to break contact once on the ground. They teach that once on the ground you are vulnerable to attacks by others as well as anyone who is stronger. So, such as spralling or rolling through the fall is what you use. For you see the object is to survive, not to get a submission hold. Submission holds only work on one attacker. ONE.



This ain't about neglect, this is about how much emphasis should be placed on it in training.



Deaf

I agree. And the amount of emphasis should be...avoiding grappling. And that is grapple training. It should also be in getting off your back. I spent all last night in class on escapes. About 2 hours. Escaping side, escaping mount, and escaping Kesagatame (scarf hold). That is something every fighter should learn.

And I am holding my position that you don't need to learn any submissions (except MAYBE the Kimora that is utilized if someone grabs at a holstered gun while you are on your back...but even then...better to know how to keep them from doing that by learning to escape your back).

 

[stonewall50]

I think the vast majority of individuals on this forum likely realize that. I think it is a matter of perspective. When faced with an aggressive attacker I see three options: (1) retreat - this is by far my most preferred option (2) concede to the demands of my attacker if they do not threaten my safety or that of those I have a moral obligation to defend (3) deploy as overwhelming force as I can possibly deploy to end the aggressive actions as quickly as possible.



I have a great preference for option 1. Because I believe that the use of overwhelming force is always a negative action (please note there is a difference IMO between a negative action and one that is wrong or unjustified) I also greatly prefer option 2 over option 3.



That being said I think we all need to be aware of contact fighting that does not involve a firearm. If someone draws a knife on me at 30 feet outside of my house deploying my firearm and using overwhelming force would likely have drastic legal consequences. However history teaches me that if they are much closer I have to have an option other than my firearm for creating distance.



Being forced to grapple is, to me, a nightmare scenario. Distance is my friend and any contact fighting I use is going to be in an attempt to gain distance or movement in order to retreat or use a firearm. Further because I am not of means to make kidnapping for ransom a likely motive for my attacker I cannot envision any scenario where my attacker is able to close on me and put me in any type of hold where he or she would not have simply deployed overwhelming force. No one is going to walk up behind me and suddenly put me in some hold. Anyone willing to cross that line and able to approach me that close without raising my suspicion is likely to stab / shoot / club me.



Maybe I am wrong but focusing on grappling for self defense is to me of somewhat questionable value. Even focusing on anything but the most rudimentary of contact fighting is, again for defensive use, of somewhat suspect value. Now if you enjoy training in those things for other reasons great - do it. If you are a peace office or work in the security industry you have different goals than I do in regards to confrontations and need more skills and I understand that. For the armed citizen concentrating on grappling is likely not where I would spend my limited training time, money, and effort.

I am not suggesting anyone take it up as their only defensive art. I am suggesting they do not neglect it. Any fight can end up on the ground against your wishes. All it takes is bad luck.

 

[stonewall50]

Strange, I have one burglar and one purse snatched to my credit. The burglar was stealing from my parent's house while I was in college. I used a Colt Cobra to hold him at bay. The purse snatcher was in the Virgen Islands when my wife and I were on our honeymoon. Two of us ran the guy down. The other guy bear hugged 'em while I applied a wrist lock. The purse snatcher kept screaming, "let go of my hand" (well I WAS a bit enthusiastic...) We didn't "go to the ground".



There was no "grappling". Even in the fights I was in while in high school there was no grappling. Does that mean it does not happen? No.



But go look at "YouTube" and search for "street fights", and you will see this 85 percent thing is hokie.



Deaf

85%? Nah. 85% of fights going to the ground is not even remotely close. But you did just give a 50% stat lol. But that is because I consider bear hugs and wrist locks grappling.

My definition of grapple training is ANYTHING from defending against submissions, takedowns, sweeps, and basically anything that is the art of not allowing someone to put any kind of control hold or throw on you.

 

[doofus47]

I do a bit; like multiplication tables, it's a good thing to have seen and done before a pop quiz.

 

[Tucker 1371]

I wrestled for 4 years in high school, very casually dabbled in some BJJ, and then tried MMA for a little while, also very casually. I've also been certified 3 times in PPCT (LEO martial arts) and am a tan belt in MCMAP (Marine Corps).

The most useful of all that I have trained in is, BY FAR, PPCT. There is absolutely nothing fancy about it. It is all gross motor skills and every technique is based around the assumption that you are wearing a gun that you don't want your adversary to take away. Some techniques involve gaining space and employing your sidearm. If you are carrying, depending on the totality of the circumstances, that is the most advisable thing to do should you find yourself in a hand to hand altercation. Gain space, disengage the threat, side step or circle to an angle that gives you the advantage, draw and give loud verbal commands.

If, for whatever reason, you find yourself on the ground with an attacker in a position of advantage, maintain control of your weapon at all costs. If he gets it you are at his mercy. If I have the opportunity to draw my weapon, with someone on top of me, I will and I will use it. That is absolutely a deadly force situation IMO.

**DISCLAIMER**
I am NOT an attorney. The above post is NOT legal advice and should not be considered or used as such.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Stonewall,

The ONLY reason we didn't punch and kick the purse snatcher was cause HE didn't punch or kick. He tried to just get away. If he had thrown a punch I'd have gone to elbows mixed with left and right crosses.

You see at the time this happened I was a 4th dan. Taekwondo and taught my own school. I'd been in Okinawan karate, Judo, and some Shotokan as well as lots of TangSoDoo. Later I got into Krav Maga to boot.

Nowdays I'm a 5th Dan and I play with Wing Chun, escrima, and Kali for fun but I've also competed in NRA leg matches, IPSC (class 'A'), IDPA (expert and above in all classifications), and IHMSA. I have a very nice set of trophies in my man cave. Plus been to quite a few schools ran by well know trainers.

Deaf

 

[Skans]

I am not suggesting anyone take it up as their only defensive art. I am suggesting they do not neglect it. Any fight can end up on the ground against your wishes. All it takes is bad luck.

There are scenarios where you won't be able to immediately deploy your firearm. I've practiced a number of them. From this I learned that most people (including myself) are simply not quick enough or good enough to "whip" out their firearm and start shooting the BG when you are being held upclose at gunpoint. You need a certain amount of distance between you and your attacker, otherwise reaching for your firearm will get you shot. The defensive drills I've practiced involve using having a variety of physical skills. For instance, if someone holding a firearm on me and happens to get within 3 feet of me, I may need to physically strike the gunman (or gunman's arm) before I can get enough distance between us for me to deploy my firearm. I consider this a form of grappling, but call it what you want.

A firearm is just a tool for self defense. IMHO, you are at a serious disadvantage if it's your only tool.

 

[FireForged]

I have taken a couple of weapon retention classes as well as ground fighting and ARCON. My original introduction into any sort of self defense was the nearly forgotten Yun Mu Kwan back in the late 70's. I don't know that I have a plan but I will react intuitively if attacked. What I will do or to what degree depends a great deal on what is happening. I do not really consider myself skilled in fighting but I am a pretty fair brawler haha. I think that about 80% of fighting is personal grit and 20% is what you know.