Double Naught Spy
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Good enough? Hopefully. I think I'll keep working on it. Maybe the target won't be as easy as described.
Do you believe you're a good enough shot?
- Thread starter jrsower
- Start date
Jeff K - therein lies the problem... so until phasers are perfected, the decisions will require an annoyingly large amount of compromise.
I agree with Gomez. Rushing the guy and shooting him point blank does raise the odds of a lethal hit. It may also cause him to take his weapon and try to stop you, which raises the odds of you being shot.
Best to not start shooting unless there is no better choice. Can you make THAT decision in a fraction of a second?
I agree with Gomez. Rushing the guy and shooting him point blank does raise the odds of a lethal hit. It may also cause him to take his weapon and try to stop you, which raises the odds of you being shot.
Best to not start shooting unless there is no better choice. Can you make THAT decision in a fraction of a second?
This is exactly what the "rush" technique is designed to accomplish. When you yell and rush someone from a close distance, the "reptile" portion of their brain, that controls the fight or flight response, immediately gears up for the oncoming threat.
This does several very good things in a hostage situation.
1) It resets their OODA loop.
2) It pull their focus away from the hostage and towards the threat, they get a sympathy muscle response as well, their appendages, including their weapon will tend to prepare for the oncoming attacker, hence their weapon will no longer be on the hostage.
3) Action beats reaction, you can cover 3-5 yards faster than they can comprehend what you are doing, and react to your actions.
4) The contact distance head shot is as close to a sure thing as you can get in a dynamic situation.
I like the rush technique in a hostage situation.
Mr. Gomez, do you remember my contact distance head shot at the Dallas DT class? This here's a 9mm boy, powerfull enough to blow a mans head clean off!
Double Naught Spy
New member
THERE IS NO OODA LOOP in the reptilian brain. OODA loop processing happens in the frontal. Everybody knows that it is the color code system that is in the reptilian brain, really! Okay, some reptiles are color blind. My bad.
If action always beat reaction, then how is it one fighter can block the throw of the other? Obviously, if action beats reaction, the the fighter blockng the blow must be moving to block before the throw is made. Sorry, but the theory is hugely flawed. Action ONLY beats reaction when the time of processing and time of counter movements are slower than that of the total time needed to make the action perform the desired tasks. This is very individual dependent. Better trained people tend to 'react' much quicker than poorly trained people. You have to keep in mind that the task required to effect the reaction desired may be much smaller than the incoming action activity.
Jeff K, you are right that it just takes thousandths of a second to pull the trigger - a lot of them. Reacting to stimulus, a noise, and pulling the trigger on a single action 1911 where the slack was already taken up and the gun on target, most people will take a full quarter of a second. Some people will take about 0.20 and slower folks around 0.35. This involves the times for the incoming signal to be transmitted from the ears to the brain and the brain to react with a signal to the finger to pull the trigger. The time is similar with visual and tactile reactions as well.
If action always beat reaction, then how is it one fighter can block the throw of the other? Obviously, if action beats reaction, the the fighter blockng the blow must be moving to block before the throw is made. Sorry, but the theory is hugely flawed. Action ONLY beats reaction when the time of processing and time of counter movements are slower than that of the total time needed to make the action perform the desired tasks. This is very individual dependent. Better trained people tend to 'react' much quicker than poorly trained people. You have to keep in mind that the task required to effect the reaction desired may be much smaller than the incoming action activity.
Jeff K, you are right that it just takes thousandths of a second to pull the trigger - a lot of them. Reacting to stimulus, a noise, and pulling the trigger on a single action 1911 where the slack was already taken up and the gun on target, most people will take a full quarter of a second. Some people will take about 0.20 and slower folks around 0.35. This involves the times for the incoming signal to be transmitted from the ears to the brain and the brain to react with a signal to the finger to pull the trigger. The time is similar with visual and tactile reactions as well.
Aw, hell, Sonny Crockett did it. How hard can it be?
*Theoretically, rushing in order to draw attention and close distance might make sense. It's probably not a bad idea to draw fire. Normally that would be a bad idea, but since the BG has to transition from the hostage to you, there may be an opening before he actually fires on you.
However, it seems this would mean you'd have to fire while running toward him--better be practicing that one! I suppose you could stop and get set, but that would probably mean he'll shoot first.
Weerwulf, I hope you're deadly with that throwing knife.
*I say theoretically because I don't practice this stuff.
*Theoretically, rushing in order to draw attention and close distance might make sense. It's probably not a bad idea to draw fire. Normally that would be a bad idea, but since the BG has to transition from the hostage to you, there may be an opening before he actually fires on you.
However, it seems this would mean you'd have to fire while running toward him--better be practicing that one! I suppose you could stop and get set, but that would probably mean he'll shoot first.
Weerwulf, I hope you're deadly with that throwing knife.
*I say theoretically because I don't practice this stuff.
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Mannlicher
New member
an Old guy like me is more likely to bushwack the bad guy, rather than go toe to toe with 'em. For that, yes, I am a good enough shot.
seeker_two
New member
Who ELSE wants to negotiate?...
MAybe I missed something...
... but no one seemed to give the BG credit for being able to simply redeploy his weapon from the Hostage's head 90° to shoot the hero while the hero is doing his lightning 2 second drill. Since firing is a fraction of a second and redeploying the weapon is as well, we seem to have a serious timeline gap here.
Maybe someone younger and faster than I can do that. As a lineman in that classic American youth ritual of high school football, I was very fast off of the line. Trouble was, a lot of people I rushed did comprehend what I did. Take the example further to pro or high level college football. Check the time it takes a rushing DT / DE to go 7 and 15 yards. They do that for a living and I don'T think any of us, even you young and well conditioned atheletes out there, can take out a BG in a 2 second drill from just standing there. Even at 7 yards would, it would be a good feat - remembering that you are trying to run, draw and whack this guy upside of the noggin.
If we were talking about charging a person without a hostage and using a knife, then you would be more realistic. I have drilled to defend against that and the only way I can save myself is by retreating and drawing.
I think that the risk of getting shot yourself is too great. You have such a low probability of success, really, so why not get some distance, maybe partial cover. Move to the opposite side of BG's gun to gain an advantage and try and get a deception game going (like, maybe tossing him your dummy wallet w/ ballistic shield
). Seriously, you are armed and BG doesn't know that until then. Unless the hostage is someone you have worked out a plan with and practiced in advance (e.g., husband/wife training), your best bet may be to ensure that you survive in order to help the hostage. When you have ensured a better chance of survival, like getting at least 15 yards away and maybe some cover - anything, a street sign post or telephone pole helps - then you can make your draw and hinder BG's plan to kill and escape or take the hostage and get away. I would let BG get away without the hostage rather than risk any life.
... but no one seemed to give the BG credit for being able to simply redeploy his weapon from the Hostage's head 90° to shoot the hero while the hero is doing his lightning 2 second drill. Since firing is a fraction of a second and redeploying the weapon is as well, we seem to have a serious timeline gap here.
Maybe someone younger and faster than I can do that. As a lineman in that classic American youth ritual of high school football, I was very fast off of the line. Trouble was, a lot of people I rushed did comprehend what I did. Take the example further to pro or high level college football. Check the time it takes a rushing DT / DE to go 7 and 15 yards. They do that for a living and I don'T think any of us, even you young and well conditioned atheletes out there, can take out a BG in a 2 second drill from just standing there. Even at 7 yards would, it would be a good feat - remembering that you are trying to run, draw and whack this guy upside of the noggin.
If we were talking about charging a person without a hostage and using a knife, then you would be more realistic. I have drilled to defend against that and the only way I can save myself is by retreating and drawing.
I think that the risk of getting shot yourself is too great. You have such a low probability of success, really, so why not get some distance, maybe partial cover. Move to the opposite side of BG's gun to gain an advantage and try and get a deception game going (like, maybe tossing him your dummy wallet w/ ballistic shield
). Seriously, you are armed and BG doesn't know that until then. Unless the hostage is someone you have worked out a plan with and practiced in advance (e.g., husband/wife training), your best bet may be to ensure that you survive in order to help the hostage. When you have ensured a better chance of survival, like getting at least 15 yards away and maybe some cover - anything, a street sign post or telephone pole helps - then you can make your draw and hinder BG's plan to kill and escape or take the hostage and get away. I would let BG get away without the hostage rather than risk any life.Jeff Gonzales
New member
Everything sounds great in a vacuum
There are some good responses here that get the juices flowing and the only thing I will comment on is what are you thinking? We need to put things into what we call RELATIVE CONTEXT. Who are you facing off with; a true terrorist hell bent on succeeding or a crack head invading your home to get valuables for his Oil for Food program. Each is very different and will require different strategies. You walk into these training scenarios and you know what is going to happen, there is a lot of presumptuous training going on there and not as much realism.
There is no way in hell you are going to get away with shooting the hostage to get the shot on the threat. That is just plain not thinking. I cannot beleive someone would even suggest it. You have no idea what type of reprecussion will surface from accidentally hitting the hostage much less purposely. While removing the hostage from the situation is the goal, shooting them doesn't fit into that equation.
Rushing the threat presumes he will let you. Again, you got a lot of variables present like space to do so, no obstructions to your path and the hope he will just stare at you as you do your best Braveheart redention. Not to mention the actions of the hostage as you close the distance.
If there is an opportunity to disengage then keep it as a viable option. Removing yourself from the problem will buy you time and keep your options open. As mentioned earlier the bad guy will be calling the shots for the most part, but can still be manipulated towards a tactical disadvantage. It is not entirely safe to say the BG took a hostage because he was afraid, it could very well be the plan to take a hostage, so relying on their poor disposition can be a fatal mistake.
Closing the distance so you are inside of your training threshold for this difficult shot is the next option, but in a way that doesn't compromise the situation. Perhaps moving to a chair, table or even a counter in a non-violent manner will provide you with the decption you need to get "closer". Next, would be the distraction, but bear in mind anything you attempt from in front will more than likely have less an effect as something that happens from behind the threat. These precurses make up the elements of surprise you need to truly be provided with the opportunity to execute your plan.
These situations don't always end up with the good guy winning, there are lots of things that can go wrong. So, let us focus on what can go right. You are at the outer extremes of your skill level for a dedicated head shot on an obscured target, the head is open and you are at a guard position with your pistol carrying the guaranteed one shot stop round everyone has been waiting to get. In that instance, hell why wouldn't you take the shot.
Ultimately it will boil down to this, you are going to be gambling with another persons life. What are you willing to loose?
Later,
There are some good responses here that get the juices flowing and the only thing I will comment on is what are you thinking? We need to put things into what we call RELATIVE CONTEXT. Who are you facing off with; a true terrorist hell bent on succeeding or a crack head invading your home to get valuables for his Oil for Food program. Each is very different and will require different strategies. You walk into these training scenarios and you know what is going to happen, there is a lot of presumptuous training going on there and not as much realism.
There is no way in hell you are going to get away with shooting the hostage to get the shot on the threat. That is just plain not thinking. I cannot beleive someone would even suggest it. You have no idea what type of reprecussion will surface from accidentally hitting the hostage much less purposely. While removing the hostage from the situation is the goal, shooting them doesn't fit into that equation.
Rushing the threat presumes he will let you. Again, you got a lot of variables present like space to do so, no obstructions to your path and the hope he will just stare at you as you do your best Braveheart redention. Not to mention the actions of the hostage as you close the distance.
If there is an opportunity to disengage then keep it as a viable option. Removing yourself from the problem will buy you time and keep your options open. As mentioned earlier the bad guy will be calling the shots for the most part, but can still be manipulated towards a tactical disadvantage. It is not entirely safe to say the BG took a hostage because he was afraid, it could very well be the plan to take a hostage, so relying on their poor disposition can be a fatal mistake.
Closing the distance so you are inside of your training threshold for this difficult shot is the next option, but in a way that doesn't compromise the situation. Perhaps moving to a chair, table or even a counter in a non-violent manner will provide you with the decption you need to get "closer". Next, would be the distraction, but bear in mind anything you attempt from in front will more than likely have less an effect as something that happens from behind the threat. These precurses make up the elements of surprise you need to truly be provided with the opportunity to execute your plan.
These situations don't always end up with the good guy winning, there are lots of things that can go wrong. So, let us focus on what can go right. You are at the outer extremes of your skill level for a dedicated head shot on an obscured target, the head is open and you are at a guard position with your pistol carrying the guaranteed one shot stop round everyone has been waiting to get. In that instance, hell why wouldn't you take the shot.
Ultimately it will boil down to this, you are going to be gambling with another persons life. What are you willing to loose?
Later,
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
I've been on static ranges with shooters who are very, very good in that environment. I've seen those same shooters fall apart in force-on-force exercises, even though the worst that could happen is a good welt from a Sims gun.Good shooting does not necessarily equate to fighting.
Could I make the shot? I went four for five (five with a peripheral hit) headshots from twenty-five yards today. NO WAY would I try it in a for-real scenario even from fifteen unless the situation was very extreme.
Just my .02
Denny
Could I make the shot? I went four for five (five with a peripheral hit) headshots from twenty-five yards today. NO WAY would I try it in a for-real scenario even from fifteen unless the situation was very extreme.
Just my .02
Denny
I ve already told my wife and kids if that ever happened I would shot them first. I figure they have a better chance if I shoot them and should confuse the BG and then I hopefully can get a clear shot. My family knows what a terrible shot I am shooting at them will probally hit him.
I figure they have a better chance if I shoot them and should confuse the BG and then I hopefully can get a clear shot. My family knows what a terrible shot I am shooting at them will probally hit him.7 yards - ma-a-ybe. 15 yards - nope - gonna need a Plan B. Here's another interesting "stress builder" for the square range - saw it of all places on an episode of NCIS. Next time you're feeling pretty good about your paper hostage taker groups, put something near and dear to you (PDA, cell phone, favorite ball cap, what-have-you) over the hostage's head and run your target back out - and nope, I haven't done it, nor do I intend to.