Do you aid a BG you just blasted?

BigG:

I am not Mas Ayoob. He is much shorter.

Jim Keenan:

A person's actions don't have to be as blatant as those in your example. I sent a lengthy e-mail to Rob (moderator) about an on-going case in my county. Rob wanted me to consider posting the e-mail in September but I decided not to. I'll give you the Reader's Digest version.

A person I know shot a "shoplifter" in "self defense" in August. I was paged and responded as Fire/EMS. When I arrived, there was one LEO on scene and the EMS folks were just showing up. The patient was a gutshot 15 year old kid with severe internal injuries.

Here are a few points to ponder. The shooter had a history of making remarks to myself and others prior to the shooting about his collection of firearms and his intent to kill anyone who screwed with him. The shooter showed no remorse or concern for the victim at the time of the shooting or afterwards. The shooter made no attempt to assist the kid after he was down. The list goes on.

Here's the bottom line. The DA waited 8 weeks to file charges. The DA had the option under statute of not charging the shooter, charging both parties, charging no one, or charging just the bad guy. A couple of weeks ago the DA charged the shooter with arrgavated assault with a deadly weapon and he even went so far as to say the shooter acted with criminal intent. BTW, the kid who got shot even admitted to trying to take the shooter's head off with a beer bottle. I am not looking forward to the subpeona I am sure to get or the civil trial that will likely follow.

It seems folks around here are tired of the macho vigilante attitude. Furthermore, if a person is going to run off at the mouth, accountability is sure to follow shortly. In addition, we are all tired of the macho kind of guy who wants to assume the role of "an armed victim" for the purpose of shooting someone.

I guess the jury will need to decide if the shooter's motive was to protect himself, or inflict harm on another. Of course, the shooter's behavior does little to further his cause. And as you said, "That, folks, is reality, not the movies, not a video game, not some juvenile fantasy".
 
I agree with sbryce, particularly when it comes to convincing a jury that the shooting was not premeditated or with malice. To avoid having to justify yourself it would be better if you had a successful double tap but, unlike the belief that guns automatically mean death that is spread through the media, people due survive gun fights. Also we must remember that if we treat the BG like a dog when down then we are no better than he/she is.
 
Calling 911 is sufficient.
I really don't want to shoot anyone so I would probably rack my shotgun and yell that the police were on the way. Unless the BG is a complete wacko or drugged out I believe he'd leave.
Avoid blasting anyone if you possibly can. It is my impression that you'd be a pretty damaged human being if you looked forward to shooting someone.
Shooting another human being is a rather traumatic event. It is a last resort. If and when it happens you can forget the macho posturing. Shooting someone is a terrible thing! Granted that in order to defend self and family one may do it. I would not glorify a shooting or postulate scenarios.
Shoot someone and your whole life changes. I can assure you that it will affect you and the way people look at you.
 
Ankeny: Things in WI must be a tad different thant in N.TX. Here in Denton Co, you would hear one of two two-word phrases uttered at some point subsequent to your shooter's arrest: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>"No Bill." or
<LI>"Not Guilty."</UL>

If the guy, no matter how foul in the past, no matter how dispicable his history, could prove a reasonable articulable fear for his life (the other guy "admitted to trying to take his head off with a beer bottle." Hello!), and the shooting was made in defense of his own life, he walks. I agree that it sounds bad, but...

####

My own spouse is shot in my house? Call 911, inform them of the double shooting, and that you are attempting to protect your spouse (give location). Don't touch nor even go near the BG beyond seeing he is disarmed (if this can be done with some safety)-- treat him as a continued threat, but/and do what needs doing for your spouse's health. If it's safe to move her out of the house, then we've got a no-brainer.

------------------
Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?

Matt




[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 17, 1999).]
 
I guess I would tell everybody to
read Ankeny post's very carefully.
He is a voice of reason.

As far as TX - recall that people have
been charged in TX and have had to
spend large amounts of money to defend
themselves. It isn't a guaranteed NO-Bill.

As far as thinking any handgun type
or round guarantees anything is stupid.
 
yeah, right; help the BG so he can get regain his health (courtesy of the taxpayers) and then sue you. Let the bastard bleed to death. Just my humble opinion.
 
This question comes up from time to time, much like Christoper Lee in the old Dracula movies. Let me attempt to drive a stake through its heart. Determining the level of consciousness of someone who isn't shamming can be difficult, even if one is trained and experienced. Determining the degree of incapacitaion can also be difficult, even in some one who isn't shamming.
Here is what you know:
1. Moments ago, you believed the otherhuman to pose a threat which justified the use of lethal force.
2. He now appears to offer no threat.
What you do not know:
1. What is his level of consciousness?
2. Is he incapacitated?
3. Where are his weapons? Even if you see one, you can't rule out the presence of more.
4. Does he have an accomplice?
5. If he is unconscious, how will he respond if he regains consciousness?
Given what you don't know, I maintain that there is absolutely no way that you can approach the otherhuman in relative safety. Even with trained back-up, approaching him may be quite dangerous.
How safe would it have to be for me to approach the guy? It would have to be completely safe. No ethical issue can reasonably require that you risk your life for one who just put you in fear of your own life.
I haven't even addressed the practical problems to approaching him, because I wouldn't even consider approaching him voluntarily.
For instance, do you take your weapon, and leave yourself vulnerable to a disarm? Or do you leave your weapon behind? Neither sounds attractive to me. Distance is your friend. Maintain it.
Do you just let him bleed out? No, don't do that. Keep your distance, stay behind cover, and call 911.
I don't think it matters if you are untrained or are a board-certified trauma surgeon. The only safe thing is to assume he is still dangerous. It's not for nothing that the police handcuff the people they've shot before they send them to the hospital, with an armed escort.

------------------
TB., NC
rosie.acmecity.com/bebe/6/index.html
 
Ankeny: Could you please explain what "universal precautions" are?

In the gunfight at home scenario with both the BG and my wife down, I'd have to apply the lesson I learned (and taught) in the military: the first step in treating a gunshot wound is to take care of the tactical problem. In this scenario, I don't know if my shots have seriously wounded, or even hit, the bad guy, so I have to either make sure he's disabled or find a way to retreat with my wife to a place where I can call 911 and administer first aid in relative safety. It's a difficult situation.
 
Matt-
Universal precautions are when you lock the door so that her father can't walk in on you! ;). Actually this refers to wearing goggles and gloves so that you are not in contact with blood and it's nasty infectious bits.

Regardless of the initial scenario, I started thinking of what you could do to "help" if so inclined, assuming basic first aid training and no fancy equipment.

Scenario #1- no pulse. Moot point, no threat. Don't play in the body fluids.

Scenario #2- pulse/alive.

BG bleeding from chest wound. You can't do anything(unless better trained). Sticking a finger in the hole may make things worse, or it may make things better. Probably best to keep your distance. You can't stop significant bleeding in this case.

BG bleeding from belly/pelvis. The bleeding here is mostly internal and probably hard for a newbie to gauge. Direct pressure will be minimally effective in most cases as the entrance hole probably not actual site of bleeding- no sticking fingers in holes. The bleeding site is most likely deep not superficial so all that blood leaking out will leak "in" if you plug the hole.

Head/neck shot. Not much you can do. Probably best to stay away unless BG having airway problems.

Extremity shot.
If copious blood spurting and flowing then apply pressure on artery upstream. Carefull if you use direct pressure ,as bone shards are very sharp. Blood pressure cuff usefull as a tourniquet
No copius blood, Probably best to keep your distance.

In a nutshell there are only 3 things you can do, 1- CPR, which if there is blood around/in the mouth, NOT a good idea- very low yield after placing holes in someone anyway, 2- direct pressure to stop bleeding from an obvious source, 3- help position the airway.

If you are going to help there is tactical risk, only do so with a clear goal in mind. Chances are you will not be able to help other than to stop/minimize OBVIOUS bleeding or help maintain an airway.

regards,

olazul
 
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