Do we REALLY know - or do we just pass on what we've heard?

C

CANIS

New member
In searching for some additional information on my Llama Minimax .45, I noticed that the same comments are kind of echoed over and over. "I had a friend once" or "Someone once told me" or "I fired one once", and it was terrible" My question is - Do we really pass on our experiences when we post replies - or do we sometines just propigate the rumors we have heard from others?

I'm not questioning anyone's integrity or veracity, I merely wonder if we truly are giving valid experience sometimes or just repeating unsubstantiated half truths.

I have a Minimax that is going on over 1500 rounds without any trouble. It is ugly and even has a small rough spot in one of the lands in the barel, but it shoots accurately enough for any plinking or camping duty that I would possibly need it for. It is truly a "kit" gun that serves the purpose for which it was intended. I would venture to say that I would never carry or put a more expensive pistol through the paces that I've put this one through since I have better things to do than abuse $1000 guns.

I would have missed out on a great bargain ($200) if I had followed most of the opinions on the internet.

Yes - there are many junk guns out there yet I have had Lorcins, Ravens and Davis guns that all shot flawlessly without a problem for many hundreds of rounds. I have also had some higher end pistols that were miserable right out of the box.

There are many, many negative posts on just about any pistol you want to look for. I wonder though, just how many people have actually seena Glock first hand, KB?, How many people have had first hand trouble with their Kimber? How many people have had a Llama pistol fold up like play dough because of "soft metal"? How many people have firsthand experience with an AMT Backup that was just "unshootable" I could go on forever stating again all of the commonly held comments on the various boards and Deja News.

Maybe more of a starting point for discussion instead of a direct question, but I have just been wondering...

Thanks for your comments in advance,

Chris Canis
 
I post information that I know first hand. If it isn't, I will tell you before saying (typing) it. For example, I'll say "Most of the people on this board have said..." or "My best friend, whom I trust, said..." to show I have no experience with that particular problem or gun. That way, I'm not giving bad info to good people.
 
I am a mechanical engineer by training ... not a ballistician! I usually try to keep my technical responses to things that I have an above average familiarity with (laws of physics, statistics, properties of materials, and the like). I also try to cite my references if I'm repeating or passing on a theory that sounds reasonable to me but that falls short of "law" status. I'm not one to bash products (Glocks and Sigs and HK's and Llamas all sell well ... everyone has their preferences) ... but if there is a design flaw in something that could prove to be dangerous (unsupported chambers seem like a good candidate) I would probably offer a word of caution. For example, if someone mentions that they just found a pile of .40 brass on a range and asks about max full-house loads for their new Glock ... well, I think they ought to at least be warned that both the die makers and pistol makers think that this is a bad idea. No I haven't seen a kB! ... but I'd just as soon not!
That's my .02 here.
Saands
 
I know there are those out there with more experience, but after shooting and owning firearms for 35 years I have picked up a little bit of knowledge.

I try to pass on what little I do know, and if I am wrong, I admit it.

But, I am never wrong ;)
 
A little of both. :) I would assume that most people would state wether they know first or second hand though.
 
Greetings Canis- First with all due respect,
what difference does it make whether it's
first hand knowledge, or something that you
have learned from someone else; so long as
the information is accurate and correct?
There are many member's here, from all walks
of life; some young and some old who come
here to share what they have learned. :) I
think is safe to say, that a "true handgunner" has ascertained fact's through
trial and error, research, and friends
here at TFL. I have made mistakes myself,
while posting on this board; but have been
quickly corrected by someone who had the
correct information. We are all human, and
that is going to happen once in a while.
I would never knowingly post invalid,
inaccurate, or misleading information
to my associate's here on this forum.

Best Wishes & Have A Nice Day,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
I post to what I have personally experienced or have witnessed others who had success or failures. If I post something not witnessed or experienced I'll state it as "from what I've heard" or "from what I've read" etc..

Posting by hear-say does happen alot on the boards though.

------------------
Rick

[This message has been edited by Bandit (edited October 01, 2000).]
 
Ala,

It DOES matter (at least to me). Passing on information that is just hearsay does not truly give someone an accurate picture. Refer to my examples in my first post. How many people that say their Glock or 1911 is superior truly base that opinion on experience rather than comments that they have read or heard? How many people that say that a gun is crap have truly tried it for themselves?

I don't doubt that most everyone posts with the right intentions. I was more trying to point out that some of the commonly held beliefs that certain pistols suck or that certain pistols are perfect might be more urban myth than truth.

But, I still come here to learn more about firearms than I am capable of learning on my own even in several lifetimes!

Once again, I don't doubt the integrity or veracity of the foum members, just trying to get a little discourse going! :)

CANIS
 
I think for everyone here it is a little bit of both.

Good example is the discussion on the inherent accuracy of the .40 S&W. Some people have posted having excellent accuracy. That's their personal experience with their personal guns.

I, on the other hand, have knowledge that the manufacturers, who test thousands and thousands of rounds from dozens, or hundreds, of guns, find it to be not as accurate as other cartridges.

That's not my first hand experience, I'm just reporting what I've heard from ammo companies.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Canis, I am a LEO Firearms Instructor who also teaches self defense to citizens, who wish to become proficient with their handguns. I have had LLamas on the range and I would not spend my money on one, for what ever that is worth. They seem to have a fondness for malfunctioning, even with hardball. I am sure that it could be a case of their products improving as time goes by, the last one that I had on the range was the model that was very similar to the 1911, except that it has a ribbed slide on it.

7th

------------------
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
 
Ditto on what 7th fleet said. I too am a CCW instructor and I have the opportunity to deal with just about all of them at one time or another. In the rare event that I do speak, I speak only with those I have personally dealt with. In my experience, it seems like we do have alot of malfunctions at the range with the Llamas. In the CCW classes we see everything from to tiny Freedon Arms mini revolver to the mighty Ruger and Tuarus .454's. The ones that malfunction the most stick in my mind. In the class we stress carrying a reliable weapon, trouble is many people have never shot the guns they bring to qualify with. If you have a gun that is reliable and shoots well...stick with it. I have seen low end guns that shot very well and high end guns that were pieces of junk right out of the box.

By the way...did you know that LLAMA is pronounced "Yama" ?
 
Postman, yotsa yuck trying to get people to believe that Llama is pronounced "Yama" ;)

Regards,
Frank

[This message has been edited by faiello5 (edited October 01, 2000).]
 
And did you know that "llama" means flame in Spanish?

------------------
The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!
 
I generally stick with what I know first hand. It's a fact, though, that two shooters can have radically differing impressions of, say, the reliability of the same model of gun. What seems to be an contradiction may turn out to be quite true! IOW, folks differ, and guns differ, even guns of the same model from the same maker. In the end, we compare the info we get with our own experiences. The final result is often a judgment call, which is no better--but no worse, either--than the judgment of the person making the call.
 
If my experiences are not first hand I say so. Yes, I had a lemon Kimber and I paid out the a$$ to get it fixed. I have fired thousands of rounds through a half dozen Glocks that I have owned and I think they are butt ugly. I have seen the results of two Glock Kb's but I didn't see them happen. I have shot the AMT and the trigger is horrific. I have never fired a Llama and know nothing about them.
 
I will try and say if something I know is second hand, but I'm sure that I'm guilty of stereotyping some guns. In fact I'm sure that I've insulted some guns that I've never used.

And the trigger on the AMT sucks. I've only dryfired it, but I was tempted to try and use more than one finger on the trigger. :)
 
CANIS,
I agree with the intent of your post, that sometimes people pass things on without first trying to validate them. This is how "URBAN LEGENDS" get going.

Here are some gun Urban Legends:
1. Glocks always KB
2. Kimbers are never reliable
3. Lorcins etc are jammomatics
4. Anything smaller than 9mm will bounce off someone wearing a leather jacket
5. etc. etc. etc.

Like many rumors, they often get started with some basis in truth but get twisted or expanded as they are repeated.

I try when I post (as do many others here) to state "I've heard," (or something similar) if it is not something I personnally am sure about. This allows the reader to differentiate between what I know as fact or a direct personal experience from something which I cannot personally guarantee to be the truth.

I think the people in this board are generally pretty good about that. Some other boards seem to have a larger rumor mill than TFL.
 
My comments on the Llamas are from experience. I have worked on a number of them and they have a lot of hand fitting and many soft parts. They are generally sloppily fitted and not very accurate. That being said, it depends on the use to which the gun will be put. They are reliable enough for plinking and (maybe) defense in the short term. But they simply will not stand up to long hard shooting (such as target shooting). Frames batter, slide stop holes go out of round, slide stop notches wear, etc.

As for Lorcin, Davis, Raven, and similar guns, I worked for shops that sold them and about 25% came back for various problems, mostly failure to fire. Trying to fix them was generally an exercise in going crazy. The makers simply had no concern for quality control. Of course the other 75% either worked OK or were never fired enough for the owner to care.

Jim
 
Chipperman,

You hit on exactly what I was trying to get at!

I truly do believe that the posts from folks like 7thfleet, Jim Keenan, Watchman etc. are based on objective observation over a period of time. But I also think that many others are simply passing on "Urban legends" much like the ones that chipperman listed in his post.

It's almost like reading some of the gun magazine articles and trying to weed through the "reviews" to find some real truth in them that is not influenced by advertising dollars. You have to dig in and get your hands dirty to REALLY find out the definitive answers to what firearms are best for you.

Perhaps it comes down to a little bit of luck on a firearms purchase. A sound design can still have it's bad apples - inversely, a poorly designed or bad QC manufactured firearms can have some real shining examples slip through and give great service to the lucky buyer.

That's also what makes being an enthusiast so much fun - it's the search for what you are looking for that is almost as much fun as actually obtaining it! (kind of like being young and single and out on the town with a pocket full of money and your roomate is out of town for the weekend! ;))

I view these and other forums as invaluable tools for being able to touch base with people of more or less like minds and interests at least inregards to firearms. Otherwise, I would never have the opportunity to discuss and read about one of my favorite topics :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top