Do LEO have right to defend themselves?
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LanceOregon
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We had a similar incident here where I live a year and a half ago, when a 19 yr old was trying to commit suicide. He had consumed an entire box of rat poison, and had grabbed a large knife from the kitchen and was injuring himself.
His parents called the police to get help to stop him from committing suicide. The boy had been completely normal up until he turned 18. He was an honor student, Eagle Scout, and talented and strong Rugby player. He was well liked, and had tons of friends. His father is a most successful business man, and they lived in one of the biggest and nicest homes in the city.
But something went horribly wrong chemically with his brain during his senior year in High School, and he quickly degenerated into being severely mentally ill. He was hospitalized a couple of times, and put on numerous anti-psychotic medications. But despite this, he went out of control again that night.
The police showed up, and immediately confronted him. When they saw the knife in his hand, they fired two shots from bean bag guns at him, with no effect. He continued to come forward at them with the knife, just like this other mentally ill fellow. As he neared, pepper spray was also used. But it also was unable to stop him.
Finally, the back up officer opened up with his M4 carbine, and 4 of his 6 shots hit the teenager, killing him almost instantly.
He died right in the driveway in front of his home, as his parents watched the event from a window.
It just seemed so wrong that if the police go out to stop a suicide, that their answer to stop the suicide was to riddle him with high velocity rifle bullets.
Over 500 people showed up for his funeral.
The teenager's parents are extremely devote Christians, and told the press that they accepted what happened as being "God's Will". So they decided not to sue the police department.
Since this incident, though, the police department has added Tasers to the options that officers now have at their disposal.
In fact, earlier this year a man in our area who beat his live in girlfriend, and was holding both her and her infant daughter hostage, was confronted by police when she called 911 to report the beating. The fellow raised a large functional Japanese sword at the officers, and threatened them. The abused woman and her child were right nearby, and in grave danger.
However, in this case, the officers tased him, and immediately took him into custody. So he is now in jail for domestic abuse, while the poor mentally ill teenager, who was so loved and had so many friends, is dead.
Unfortunately, there are no easy answers here. But I think the key is that officers deserve to have the best possible training and equipment for handling different types of scenarios. For without that, they are really going to be at a disadvantage in handling these difficult situations.
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His parents called the police to get help to stop him from committing suicide. The boy had been completely normal up until he turned 18. He was an honor student, Eagle Scout, and talented and strong Rugby player. He was well liked, and had tons of friends. His father is a most successful business man, and they lived in one of the biggest and nicest homes in the city.
But something went horribly wrong chemically with his brain during his senior year in High School, and he quickly degenerated into being severely mentally ill. He was hospitalized a couple of times, and put on numerous anti-psychotic medications. But despite this, he went out of control again that night.
The police showed up, and immediately confronted him. When they saw the knife in his hand, they fired two shots from bean bag guns at him, with no effect. He continued to come forward at them with the knife, just like this other mentally ill fellow. As he neared, pepper spray was also used. But it also was unable to stop him.
Finally, the back up officer opened up with his M4 carbine, and 4 of his 6 shots hit the teenager, killing him almost instantly.
He died right in the driveway in front of his home, as his parents watched the event from a window.
It just seemed so wrong that if the police go out to stop a suicide, that their answer to stop the suicide was to riddle him with high velocity rifle bullets.
Over 500 people showed up for his funeral.
The teenager's parents are extremely devote Christians, and told the press that they accepted what happened as being "God's Will". So they decided not to sue the police department.
Since this incident, though, the police department has added Tasers to the options that officers now have at their disposal.
In fact, earlier this year a man in our area who beat his live in girlfriend, and was holding both her and her infant daughter hostage, was confronted by police when she called 911 to report the beating. The fellow raised a large functional Japanese sword at the officers, and threatened them. The abused woman and her child were right nearby, and in grave danger.
However, in this case, the officers tased him, and immediately took him into custody. So he is now in jail for domestic abuse, while the poor mentally ill teenager, who was so loved and had so many friends, is dead.
Unfortunately, there are no easy answers here. But I think the key is that officers deserve to have the best possible training and equipment for handling different types of scenarios. For without that, they are really going to be at a disadvantage in handling these difficult situations.
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Uh huh. Let's see YOU do it, fella.
Let's see you respond to a call to find a totally non-responsive, emotionally disturbed person (EDP) who is waving a weapon of some sort. As the EDP sees you, they become visibly agitated. You are trying to start a dialogue, and the person starts toward you.
You have the following choices:
a. Turn and run. This might keep you from getting hurt. You still have to deal with the person.
b. Stand your ground. This means that you will be within the range of a lethal weapon. Prepare to be hurt, or killed.
c. Go hands-on, using your superior knowledge of hand-to-hand, CQB, and other skills to quickly wrestle the person to the ground and handcuff them. Note: This approach is usually attempted or seriously considered only by the person(s) who have never had to go hands on with an EDP.
d. Use your OC. Note quickly that it doesn't work worth a durn on an EDP.
e. Use your Taser. Excellent option--unless you don't HAVE one.
So, I guess at this point you'd just get back in the car, call for a supervisor, and find a happy place until you can turn in your badge, right?
I understand you defending your brothers in uniform.
But, I have confidence you could have figured out a way to get the wacko to the mental hospital eventually without killing him.
If there were extenuating circumstances in favor of the officers ending it then and there they weren't presented very well by the defense or at least not to the satisfaction of the judge or jury.
But, I have confidence you could have figured out a way to get the wacko to the mental hospital eventually without killing him.
If there were extenuating circumstances in favor of the officers ending it then and there they weren't presented very well by the defense or at least not to the satisfaction of the judge or jury.
Maybe I read a different story following that link. I saw nothing in there that defined the circumstances that would allow any of us to be able to say for sure what we would or would not have done. I didn't see anything defining how close he was when he charged with the knife... maybe there was no option to run? Nothing saying how long they (others before the officers in question arrived) had talked with him before the aggression took place either. Others could have had him spun up tight by the time they arrived there.... and then they get to make a split second decision 30 seconds after they get on the scene? Wow!
A 15 year old or mental person can kill you about as fast as a 'regular' person in my opinion. Should there be adequate training on how to handle mental situations, sure. But for anyone to, once again, sit back and critique actions without knowing all that was going on.... it's ignorant. Note I said Ignorant and not stupid. Ignorant is simply not having or knowing enough information about something. Stupid is the incapacity to understand or conclude when you do have all the info.
I know from what I read. I can't make a determination. And I think it's wrong to be on either side if you can't do that.
A 15 year old or mental person can kill you about as fast as a 'regular' person in my opinion. Should there be adequate training on how to handle mental situations, sure. But for anyone to, once again, sit back and critique actions without knowing all that was going on.... it's ignorant. Note I said Ignorant and not stupid. Ignorant is simply not having or knowing enough information about something. Stupid is the incapacity to understand or conclude when you do have all the info.
I know from what I read. I can't make a determination. And I think it's wrong to be on either side if you can't do that.
According to Sheriff Karnes and the courts(after viewing tapes) officers acted as they should have. The courts where trying to determine(per a civil suit filed by attorney rep. perps. family) if Sheriff dept. had proper training in dealing with mentaly handicaped. The judge deemed case could go to trial. Case settled out of court for stated amount plus same training the City of Cols. officers receive. Karnes maintains training for his officers are same but agreed to deal. I referred to an incident that happened in mid 90`s in earlier post. Police called to disturbance, entered residence, officers saw man in hallway and were talking to him. He was going to kill wife,two kids(they were in back bedroom and perp in hallway between family and LEO) and himself. LEO talking to him and he attacked them with broken bottle. They shot him.Courts paid in civil suit, judge deemed officers should have backed off
. What if LEO would have backed off and perp. follows through with threats. Guess what next days headlines are going to read. You talk about a lawsuit. What if LEO in guy with knife case jumps back in cruiser and some kid walks by and perp. cuts him. Don`t know for a fact but the apts. incident happened at are very populated. Disturbances always draws a crowd. Used to have to go and talk a man out of his bedroom at least 2 or 3 times a year. Flashbacks of Vietnam. He would always be armed, always at night cause he would start dreaming and that would put him back over their and always barracaded in bedroom . Everyone including wife and kids where Charlie.Would talk to him until he finally started coming to his sense`s. To the hospital we would go, he would be exhausted. Fortunately things always worked out and he never came out of bedroom till he was mostly back to normal . Sometimes LEO are not that fortunate and when they`re not here comes the lawsuits, criminal or civil. Some justified,MANY not, just a quick way to make a dollar. Especially for attorneys involved. Spend some time in any level of court, not hard to see. As for girl that was shot partially concealing what turned out to be an assault looking air rifle. The rifle belonged to her boyfriend which was inside carryout. Carryout owners suspicioned they were going to be robbed. When LEO arrived, saw her with blanket partially over gun,told her to put weapon down, she turned towards them and they shot. I`m sure there will be more updates on news.
. What if LEO would have backed off and perp. follows through with threats. Guess what next days headlines are going to read. You talk about a lawsuit. What if LEO in guy with knife case jumps back in cruiser and some kid walks by and perp. cuts him. Don`t know for a fact but the apts. incident happened at are very populated. Disturbances always draws a crowd. Used to have to go and talk a man out of his bedroom at least 2 or 3 times a year. Flashbacks of Vietnam. He would always be armed, always at night cause he would start dreaming and that would put him back over their and always barracaded in bedroom . Everyone including wife and kids where Charlie.Would talk to him until he finally started coming to his sense`s. To the hospital we would go, he would be exhausted. Fortunately things always worked out and he never came out of bedroom till he was mostly back to normal . Sometimes LEO are not that fortunate and when they`re not here comes the lawsuits, criminal or civil. Some justified,MANY not, just a quick way to make a dollar. Especially for attorneys involved. Spend some time in any level of court, not hard to see. As for girl that was shot partially concealing what turned out to be an assault looking air rifle. The rifle belonged to her boyfriend which was inside carryout. Carryout owners suspicioned they were going to be robbed. When LEO arrived, saw her with blanket partially over gun,told her to put weapon down, she turned towards them and they shot. I`m sure there will be more updates on news.BreacherUp!
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ZeroJunk, as a lone officer responding to this call, how would you handle it (of course, you now have the luxury of time and the security of typing from your keyboard, but inquiring minds want to know)?
Yes. It will be very enlightening to hear how this should be handled, ZeroJunk.
To clarify:
1. You are the responding officer.
2. The person who is causing the disturbance has been identified as emotionally disturbed.
3. They have been prescribed medications, but they're "off their meds".
4. As you arrive, you receive an update, stating that the subject is now acting in a threatening manner. No other information is available.
5. You observe the subject standing with a metal object in his hand. There are people talking to him from a short distance away. He is gripping the object so tightly that his hands are shaking.
You call for backup; it's enroute but won't be there for at least two to three minutes.
Handle the call.
To clarify:
1. You are the responding officer.
2. The person who is causing the disturbance has been identified as emotionally disturbed.
3. They have been prescribed medications, but they're "off their meds".
4. As you arrive, you receive an update, stating that the subject is now acting in a threatening manner. No other information is available.
5. You observe the subject standing with a metal object in his hand. There are people talking to him from a short distance away. He is gripping the object so tightly that his hands are shaking.
You call for backup; it's enroute but won't be there for at least two to three minutes.
Handle the call.
OK guys. You are probably right.
But, if the reader's info is that the officers were sent to take a known handicapped person to the mental hospital but have to kill him, and the jurisdiction settles for $500,000, one would think there is a possibility that it was mishandled. Maybe not.
But, if the reader's info is that the officers were sent to take a known handicapped person to the mental hospital but have to kill him, and the jurisdiction settles for $500,000, one would think there is a possibility that it was mishandled. Maybe not.
No harm, no foul.
The only point that we (myself and the other LEO on the board) are trying to make is that handling a call involving an EDP is one of the most volatile and potentially dangerous calls any officer--or group of officers--can encounter.
With other situations, there are usually warning signs that tell the astute person that things are going to go south, REALLY fast. With an EDP, the person can flash from zero to "Oh, #@%!" with absolutely no warning.
Add to this mix the fact that EDP's are known for having almost superhuman strength and endurance; they're able to totally disregard things that will put anyone else on their back.
Best part? You have absolutely NO idea what the trigger is. A situation that seems almost ludicrous at first can turn deadly for the officer and those around him.
Case in point:
A few years ago, police in Sammamish, WA, received a call concerning a naked man pounding on vehicles in traffic. Sammamish, WA is patrolled by the King County Sheriff's Department.
A Deputy responded; sure enough, there was a naked guy running through traffic, pounding on cars and buses. This was in the middle of the day.
The officer approached the guy to attempt to take him into custody. Suddenly, the man exploded into action. He attacked the Deputy, AND TOOK THE DEPUTY'S GUN, destroying a Level III holster in the process.
The Deputy tried to run, after managing to drop the magazine from his weapon. The EDP shot the Deputy in the leg, then picked up the magazine and reloaded. As the Deputy tried to crawl away, the EDP walked up, and shot the Deputy 5 times in the head from point-blank range.
The EDP was found later, standing on a balcony with a Bible in his hands, screaming at the top of his lungs.
Yes, EDP's can be dangerous--VERY dangerous.
In memory of Deputy Richard Herzog, King County Sheriff's Department. Rest in peace.
The only point that we (myself and the other LEO on the board) are trying to make is that handling a call involving an EDP is one of the most volatile and potentially dangerous calls any officer--or group of officers--can encounter.
With other situations, there are usually warning signs that tell the astute person that things are going to go south, REALLY fast. With an EDP, the person can flash from zero to "Oh, #@%!" with absolutely no warning.
Add to this mix the fact that EDP's are known for having almost superhuman strength and endurance; they're able to totally disregard things that will put anyone else on their back.
Best part? You have absolutely NO idea what the trigger is. A situation that seems almost ludicrous at first can turn deadly for the officer and those around him.
Case in point:
A few years ago, police in Sammamish, WA, received a call concerning a naked man pounding on vehicles in traffic. Sammamish, WA is patrolled by the King County Sheriff's Department.
A Deputy responded; sure enough, there was a naked guy running through traffic, pounding on cars and buses. This was in the middle of the day.
The officer approached the guy to attempt to take him into custody. Suddenly, the man exploded into action. He attacked the Deputy, AND TOOK THE DEPUTY'S GUN, destroying a Level III holster in the process.
The Deputy tried to run, after managing to drop the magazine from his weapon. The EDP shot the Deputy in the leg, then picked up the magazine and reloaded. As the Deputy tried to crawl away, the EDP walked up, and shot the Deputy 5 times in the head from point-blank range.
The EDP was found later, standing on a balcony with a Bible in his hands, screaming at the top of his lungs.
Yes, EDP's can be dangerous--VERY dangerous.
In memory of Deputy Richard Herzog, King County Sheriff's Department. Rest in peace.
Sigma 40 Blaster, and others are close to being correct: It should not be amazing that LEO shoots and either wounds or kills several persons each year...the really amazing part is the number we don't shoot. You need to trust me on that.
FM12, LEO since 1975. Thousands served, none abused.
Or shot.
Yet. But, I still have 4 years to retirement.
FM12, LEO since 1975. Thousands served, none abused.
Or shot.
Yet. But, I still have 4 years to retirement.
BreacherUp!
New member
you did it now...
jinxed........
jinxed........
MeekAndMild
New member
Don't get me wrong, I'm a great fan of negotiation, TASERs, pepper spray, running away and all forms of nonlethal intervention. But it looks like in this case if the LEO had stopped to debate ethics, morals and responsibilities the man would have gutted him like a fish. I'd hope this one gets reversed in appeal.
Concerning the award based on mental illness, I've seen a lot of mentally ill people in the past 30 years and you'd be surprised how often I've heard after all the fighting was over, "yea, I knew what I was doing but I knew they couldn't do anything to me except make me come back to the hospital... I just wanted to whup some ass." One case management supervisor I worked with was stabbed in the back 5 times with a screwdriver and the perpetrator was sent to the hospital for maybe 3 months.
Concerning the award based on mental illness, I've seen a lot of mentally ill people in the past 30 years and you'd be surprised how often I've heard after all the fighting was over, "yea, I knew what I was doing but I knew they couldn't do anything to me except make me come back to the hospital... I just wanted to whup some ass." One case management supervisor I worked with was stabbed in the back 5 times with a screwdriver and the perpetrator was sent to the hospital for maybe 3 months.
I am not a police officer, nor have I played one on TV, or stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
That said, I have several family members who are active LEOs, and I have done literally hundreds of ride alongs over the years, and would have joined the force myself if not for my physical problems. It is amazing to me the amount of total disrespect and arrogance that alot of people put forward to these cops. And yes, there are some super pricks with badges who abuse their power and make it hard for the good officers, but the majority are good guys, who just want to go home at night to their families....ALIVE.
I have seen some instances where I honestly think *I* would have pulled the trigger, but where the LEO's involved kept their cool, and kept the criminal from too much damage, even while taking hurts themselves in the process. It is a very hard, nerve wracking, thankless job these days. I challenge anyone who protests this too much to ride along with some local LEOs if they allow such a thing, and get a first hand glimpse at how much danger they face.
(granted that the big city cops in high crime/gang areas face way more danger than the country cops on average, but thats the state of our youth and our urban areas.)
That said, I have several family members who are active LEOs, and I have done literally hundreds of ride alongs over the years, and would have joined the force myself if not for my physical problems. It is amazing to me the amount of total disrespect and arrogance that alot of people put forward to these cops. And yes, there are some super pricks with badges who abuse their power and make it hard for the good officers, but the majority are good guys, who just want to go home at night to their families....ALIVE.
I have seen some instances where I honestly think *I* would have pulled the trigger, but where the LEO's involved kept their cool, and kept the criminal from too much damage, even while taking hurts themselves in the process. It is a very hard, nerve wracking, thankless job these days. I challenge anyone who protests this too much to ride along with some local LEOs if they allow such a thing, and get a first hand glimpse at how much danger they face.
(granted that the big city cops in high crime/gang areas face way more danger than the country cops on average, but thats the state of our youth and our urban areas.)