Do I need to adapt my reloading? Loading for an AR.

Pond James Pond

New member
At the moment, my modest reloading repertoire is limited to "static" mechanisms. 2 revolver calibres and one for a bolt action.

My .223 dies are presently in the post and should be arriving today and so soon I can begin reloading for my AR. I may still buy factory for ease, but at least I'll have the option once a suitable load has been i.d.'ed.

So my question is should I do anything differently when loading for a semi rifle?

I am thinking about things such as, but not limited to:

-Headspacing/setting the shoulders back
-Crimping (which I don't do on my bolt action)
-Case inspection tips specific to S-A cycling
-Any other kernels of wisdom...

So there we go. Those are the points I am thinking about.
Can you shed light?
 
I fully size all of my AR brass (die bottomed out on shell holder); so far that does not seem to be overworking my brass too much after 5 loadings, at any rate I'd rather get fewer loadings on a case than have an ammo-related stoppage during a string. I've only loaded and shot about 1600 rounds in my match AR so far but so far not a single issue. I also do not crimp; match bullets have no cannelure to crimp to anyway and with good neck tension it isn't necessary IMO.

I check for signs of case web thinning, and check trim length every other loading after the first. I probably won't keep using a batch much past the third trimming for fear of a case separation during a match. I've also had to mark and cull a few that felt like the primer pockets were starting to loosen up. Most of my loads are pretty moderate but I do push the long range loads a bit. I don't expect that brass to last as long either.
 
I full length size brass for my ARs and crimp using the Lee factory crimp die. Other than that, standard rifle reloading procedures.
 
Allot of reloading 223/ 5.56mm has to do with the brass you are starting with.

I use any 5.56 brass I can get my hands on. I have had issues with maintaining proper head space.

Three tools that I use every time has pretty much eliminated any Head space issues and primer pocket issues.

#1 RCBS small base sizing die.
#2 Lyman head space gauge.
#3 RCBS primer pocket swage tool.

I found these tools pretty much work around any of the wide varieties of 223 brass out there.
One thing you will find and the head space gauge will catch.
A good amount of mil surplus brass has been shot from a Saw.
These have unsupported chambers and will beat the heck out of the case heads.
The head space gauge will catch those and you can cull them before they gum up your AR with feed issues.

There are things you can do to save the SAW brass and make them usable but that may be a topic for a different thread.
 
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I have learned (with my chambers) close is not close enough for headspace. It needs to be in the go zone of a case gauge (not too long and not too short). I learned the hard way checking with a case gauge by feel was not enough. Having a round stuck in the chamber, on a public range, will ruin a day.

I reloaded a lot of brass that was shot out of a SAW. It reacted differently than brass shot out of an semi or bolt action rifle. I found that I could not get the headspace right even with the die bottomed out. I use a Redding body die to bump the shoulders back a bit. Now every case gets checked in a case gauge after sizing, priming and loading. Rather than feeling, I use a small-straight-long socket on top of the gauge to verify the case is in the go zone.
 
I've reloaded for several brand AR's with 5.56 Nato chambers and Wylde chambers with standard sizing dies by Hornady and RCBS. Just like bolt rifles, case inspection is important for safety looking for signs of stretching or cracks. Measuring the amount of shoulder sizing is very important. Fired cases in your rifle should have the shoulders pushed back from .002-.004" from fired dimensions. I recommend a case gauge such as the RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady's Headspace Gauge set to help adjust your sizing die. Use primers recommended for semi's with floating firing pins. Most recommended primers here are RP 7 1/2's, CCI 450 or CCI 41's. They have thicker cups and less chance of slam fires. I crimp bullets with crimp grooves but if you have good bullet tension in the necks then it's not absolutely necessary. Your barrel twist will determine what weight bullets are best. 1/7 will handle 50-80 grain bullets while 1/9 twists generally use up to 68-69 grain but not heavier. Fun rifle to load for and shoot with only a few extra precautions for loading semi autos.
 
I bump my shoulders back .003 but I'll let .002 pass and don't like going more then .004 . As for letting .002 pass , I have done quite a bit of testing on what happens when you let the BCG fly home . If you have a short-ish "CASE HEAD SPACE" around the .002 to.003 . The inertia of the BCG and the force in which the cartridge slams into the chambers shoulder . That act will set back the shoulder another .0015 to .0025 . It will continue to do this on each additional chambering for as much as .005 total set back .

Now I'm not going to pretend I'm some sort of expert but some say you need shorter CASE HEAD SPACE then .002 or .003 in semi autos . That is likely true as a general statement in all semi's . How ever in the AR platform setting the shoulders back around .003 should be fine do to the fact you do get shoulder set back when the AR chambers a round . I'm not seeing how you get feeding issues if you bump the shoulders back a couple thousandths . The BCG will likely force the cartridge into the chamber do to it's mass and inertia anyways .

Now what I was having issues with was case spring back and press deflection .When you have your die set to bump your shoulder back a couple thousandths . If you have both of those issues going on at the same time . You can easily get a shoulder bump of .000 or even +.001 or so . So you think you have your die set right because many cases are coming out right but you will be getting some of those longer sized cases in the mix . IMO it's those cases that are causing the feeding issues . I believe the reason we are told to FL size case to where the die makes hard contact with the standard shell holders is to eliminate that slop you can get with press deflection and case spring back .

I was having the issue of press deflection and I was having a CASE HEAD SPACE swing of as much as .005 . I'd be looking to bump the shoulder back .0025 and alot would come out around there . How ever I would also get cases that did not appear to be bumped back at all and other times they would be bumped back .005 or more . The problem was solved by using competition shell holder set . Reason being is if your die makes HARD contact with the shell holder you remove all press deflection in the operation . The problem is when doing so with a standard shell holder you often will size a case BELOW SAAMI specs . The competition shell holders allow you to still make hard contact with the shell holder while sizing your case longer in increments of .002 . There are 5 shell holders in a set starting at +.002 and end at +010 . This allows you to find that sweet spot in your CASE HEAD SPACE while removing all press deflection .

Now that's all using a single stage press . If using an AP You'd likely need to set your die to bump the shoulders back .004 or .005 to insure you have some fudge room because your not checking the cases as often

Not sure how that got so long winded , I stared out just wanting to say I set my shoulders back X amount :)

That Sierra link is a pretty good read .
 
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The AR15 gas system is not adjustable.
35 gr Vmax and Blue Dot will not cycle the AR15 action, with a wimpy load 35,000 psi or a brass squishing load 90,000 psi load or anything inbetween.

So you must have enough gas for enough time.
But you don't want too much gas, or the brass ejects too far and the bolt hammers the upper.
 
How ever in the AR platform setting the shoulders back around .003 should be fine do to the fact you do get shoulder set back when the AR chambers a round .

So 0.003" is enough? Is a little more detrimental?

I mean, unlike my .308 I have tons of .223 brass (by my standards) and I'll get a lot more as I still plan to buy factory now and again. So if I went to 0.004 I'd be OK with that if it meant that feeder was unaffected.

With the .308 I really want the brass to last as long as possible due to the fact I have about 200 Norma, but no Norma supplier in the pipeline. Once it's gone, it's gone and I have to look to another brass maker (Lapua?) and rework loads...

So you must have enough gas for enough time.
But you don't want too much gas, or the brass ejects too far and the bolt hammers the upper.

Well too much gas worries me more than too little and how does one know gas is too great before the upper shows signs of abuse?!

I suppose I should load low and then start looking at loads once the action starts cycling consistently. Once there, provided velocity is in the .223 ballpark, I can play a bit with COAL and crimp for accuracy.
Would that be the way to go?

Come to think of it, what is the consensus on crimp?
Some say "yay", some say "nay"....:confused:
 
Loading for an AR is the same as loading for any semi-auto. You must FL resize every time, check the case lengths and trim/chamfer/deburr as required and watch the OAL. Other than that, it's no different than any other cartridge.
 
Loading for an AR is the same as loading for any semi-auto. You must FL resize every time, check the case lengths and trim/chamfer/deburr as required and watch the OAL. Other than that, it's no different than any other cartridge.

I agree completely , FL sizing is a must and trimming is recommended how ever I got in the habit of trimming every time . Checking case length after sizing a must to insure the case length did not grow to much . If so you must trim or the case mouth can jam up into the lead and cause all kinds of problems .

So 0.003" is enough? Is a little more detrimental?

yes , No , how ever if you start going past .004 your case life will likely suffer . You also should consider and it's something I should have said . When measuring auto loaders fired "case head space" you don't always get a perfectly fire formed case to measure . I've heard that the case can be extracted before you get a fully formed case ( not sure how because it should be stuck to the chamber wall ) . The other reason has something to do with extraction and the case head space actually being longer then it should be . To be honest I don't know or understand the reasoning for either to explain more . I do how ever measure at least 10 and prefer 20 fired cases and the number that comes up the most is the number I set my shoulders back from . So although I believe I'm setting them back .003 it could be more and I guess less as well . Because of this I always make some dummy rounds and manually cycle them through the firearm first .

I should add that when loading for my plinking rounds that will be fired from more then one rifle . I bump the shoulders back .003 from my shortest chambered rifle insuring they cycle in all my AR's . For my NM service rifle . Those loads have very specific load specs for that rifle only .

Well too much gas worries me more than too little and how does one know gas is too great before the upper shows signs of abuse?!

How far the brass is thrown , the plastic/rubber bottom of your buffer starts to get smashed as well as just the feel of the rifle when you fire it .

What length barrel and gas system do you have ?

If you have a 16" barrel and a carbine gas system you'll likely be over gassed no mater what . I't about dwell time , which is the amount of time the bullet is in the barrel once it passes the gas port . The longer the bullet is plugging the barrel past the gas port the more gas is forced down the gas tube . Different powders with different peak pressures points can influence gas pressures at different points down the barrel . It's kinda complex but if you stick with published data and powders you should be fine .

I suppose I should load low and then start looking at loads once the action starts cycling consistently. Once there, provided velocity is in the .223 ballpark,

If you use AR or 5.56 data the rifle will likely cycle with the minimum charge . When testing a new load in a new AR . I load one round in the mag lock the BCG back , incert mag , let BCG fly home chambering the round , fire and see if the BCG locks back all the way . I do this twice . If that goes well . I then load three rounds and at a reasonable pace fire those 3 to test function and cycling . All that while trying to shoot accurately so I can have a group size sample .

Come to think of it, what is the consensus on crimp?
Some say "yay", some say "nay"

I don't and have not had an issue to date .
 
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I do how ever measure at least 10 and prefer 20 fired cases and the number that comes up the most is the number I set my shoulders back from .

I can do that!

What length barrel and gas system do you have ?

It's an M400 Carbine, so 16" and DGI.

How far the brass is thrown

Well, my brass flies some distance. I'd say 3m. Maybe more... and that is factory ammo.

the plastic/rubber bottom of your buffer starts to get smashed as well as just the feel of the rifle when you fire it .

I've not seen the buffer tube plastic. Don't even know where to look! As for the feel... well, this is my first AR. It feels fine, but I have no means of comparing.

When testing a new load in a new AR . I load one round in the mag lock the BCG back , incert mag , let BCG fly home chambering the round , fire and see if the BCG lock back all the way . I do this twice . If that goes well . I then load three rounds and at a reasonable pace fore those 3 to test function and cycling . All that while trying to shoot accurately so I can have a group size sample .

Sounds like a plan. It is definitely more involved than reloading for a bolt-action.
 
For your AR, Get a case gauge, fl size, check, trim if need be, load, crimp, and fire. Repeat. Only thing I can think of that is any different than other bottle neck cartridges is the fact it is an automatic. I use the gun chamber as my gauge on rifles that aren't auto's or pumps. God Bless
 
I've not seen the buffer tube plastic. Don't even know where to look!

Not buffer tube but buffer only . The buffer tube is what the buffer and spring are in . You can pull out the buffer and spring by pushing down on the little detent .

This is a buffer and you can barely see the little plastic piece on the other end . It acts like a bumper so if you are over gassed and the buffer does hit the back/bottom of the buffer tube . It's not hitting metal on metal .
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/carbine-buffer-assembly.html

Here's how to remove and install the buffer , This guys buffer is all black so you can't really see the plastic part .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlWD4-nJJk
 
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I use a standard RCBS .223 Remington full length sizing die, adjusted in accordance with standard RCBS instructions. I've encountered zero problems shooting my handloads in any of my ARs.

I've found that measuring case length after resizing and sorting cases that need trimming takes longer than simply trimming them all to trim length (1.750").

Finally, I use a Dillon .223 case gauge to check each loaded cartridge.

Good luck!
 
It is definitely more involved than reloading for a bolt-action.

Not a lot of difference. The two factors you need to keep in mind is:

1. Sufficient powder and gas to cycle your bolt on the semi-auto. Generally I will start my loads at mid level between min and max load data.

2. Keeping the OAL within the spec's of the magazine, AR mags max OAL is 2.260, but I stay within 2.250. Most 50 or 55 grain bullets will have an OAL of 2.200.

Otherwise it is the same as any other rifle.

I use the same reloads for both my AR and bolt action rifles.

Jim



 
Mr. Pond, James Pond,

Lots of good stuff above and I can't argue with any of it... for the most part.

So, I will tell you what/how/why I do it:

-Headspacing/setting the shoulders back
-Crimping (which I don't do on my bolt action)
-Case inspection tips specific to S-A cycling
-Any other kernels of wisdom...


I regularly feed 6 chambers, one real old school 5.56, one tight .223 (with the throating), two Wylde and two current production 5.56s. I use 'Standard Base' sizing dies for all, now. I have and have used 'Small Base' dies, but over the years have gotten away from them. If your chamber is tight, ie. target barrel, and 100% function is demanded, go with the 'Small base' sizing die. Always 'FULL LENGTH' size. My case gauge is my weapon's chambers. I test every step of the way.

I don't crimp, haven't found the need. If you do decide to crimp, go with a 'factory' type of crimp, not the old fashioned role crimp.

One of the steps I follow with all bottle necked cases is to check for roughness inside the case from the head out. Anything other than smooth and the case is not used. This will all but eliminate head separation do to stretching. I also trim to length after sizing every case.

Prep is the time consumer.

Tailor your load to your weapon and what 'it' likes best. This is both function and accuracy. Don't go for extremes. Follow the set starting and max loads when searching for 'the' load.

Always load with care and enjoy,

OSOK
 
I didn't overthink it when I started. I have loaded more .223 than anything and never had an issue. I use a countersink for primer-crimps, which some think it unholy for some reason, full-length to the holder, chamfering is 100% necessary for heavy-bullets to not scrape the jackets and I use the ,ever so slightest, FCD I can. play with bullet weights first with a common powder, then move to powder combination. I have never though of it as any different than loading for any other round, the only one that I need to worry about cycling pressures is 300lbk or lead-cast .223. the data I use from hodgdon's has always cycled my AR even at starting loads.
 
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