I have a Question and please excuse my ignorance. I use 158 GR. semi- wad cutters in my model 38 snub nose. The gentlemen I purchase the gun from , gave me the box of them. Said they would be perfect for home defense. Curious for more input. Thank you
I have a 4" barrel on my 357, I don't carry this gun often but I do have some 158gr jacketed soft point stuck in it. After reading everything you guys said I do think I will find some wad cutters and see what they do out of my gun.
Not just one, but a double 'no', yet you provided no details.No. I have seen several people shot with target wadcutters when I was a big city cop. No.
It may not be very 'powerful' but it drives deep and does in fact punch nice holes in giblets.The problem with the factory Mid Range Target Wadcutter is that while it is comfortable to shoot, it just isn't very powerful. That is why it is easy to shoot. The "clean hole" and "flat nose" can only do so much when not driven very fast.
There used to be a Service Wadcutter about 100 fps faster, same as roundnose. That would be a lot better, if it were still available. Yes, Buffalo Bore sells an overloaded wadcutter that will hit hard, but it is too fast, becoming as harsh to shoot as any of the hollowpoints on the market.
Me?
My Bodyguard is at present loaded with Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots. But I will look hard at the Federal Micro when I buy more carry ammo for that gun.
Placement trumps all else, followed by penetration.
Not considered to be good 'man stoppers'?The standard factory load .38 wadcutter is target ammo. The slugs are swaged lead, which is rather soft, and velocities are advertised as mid 800s from 6" barrels.
They are accurate, pleasant to shoot, low recoil loads. They are not, despite the full bore diameter flat point, considered to be good manstoppers at target load velocities.
The regular swaged wadcutters are not well suited to higher velocities, either.
The are neither big and heavy nor light and fast. Simply put, they are the worst of both worlds for defense against human attackers.
Dandy for small critters though, with proper shot placement.
Yet the majority of modern 38 Special loads penetrate LESS than the standard wadcutter.Put them in either order, you need both for maximum effectiveness. And, of the two, I put penetration ahead of placement, but only because penetration does some damage, even if its not in the needed spot. Placement in the right spot doesn't get you much if the bullet doesn't penetrate enough.
One is King, and the other, Queen, you decide which is which, but you need them both together, to rule.
There used to be a Service Wadcutter about 100 fps faster, same as roundnose. That would be a lot better, if it were still available. Yes, Buffalo Bore sells an overloaded wadcutter that will hit hard, but it is too fast, becoming as harsh to shoot as any of the hollowpoints on the market.
I would, if I had any, but data proving a negative is notoriously difficult to find, and its not something I was ever interested in collecting. Sorry.Not considered to be good 'man stoppers'?
Care to share your data sets on that?
Nothing to do with "proving a negative", rather it's about supporting your own assertion.I would, if I had any, but data proving a negative is notoriously difficult to find, and its not something I was ever interested in collecting. Sorry.
The term 'stopping power' is not one I used.I do, however, wonder why, if the standard .38 Special Target Wadcutter ammo is the "bees knees" for stopping power
Do you have a source for this assertion?why has no police agency ever issued it for service use?
You do know that for the majority of the 20th century, when revolvers saw their most prodigious use in law enforcement, the majority of LEOs supplied their own weapons and ammunition.....don't you?Has everyone been wrong for the past century??
As compared to the body of proof you used to state they are 'not considered good man stoppers'?I don't mean to imply that it can't work, or won't work, just that if it worked as well, or better than other things, then I think it would have been used by someone, somewhere so there would be a body of proof
Ok, I'm all ears, show me the metrics, the considerations, the data, and the body of proof to from this 'positive' assertion, that would then negate the 'negative'. I've got my bucket-o-popcorn, a big-gulp, and comfy chair.....The wadcutter concept works well, semi wadcutters work well, very well when bullet alloy and velocity are properly matched to the intended task.
I find it interesting that you keep referring to alloy/softness and inferred that is a negative trait. Yet in the real world they generally tend to not deform to any significant degree (or even at all). Most of the slugs I've recovered over the last four decades could have been reloaded with little effort, the few that did, struck bone and usually deformed less than modern wonder bullets. And yet they all worked beautifully as intended, something I can't say for many modern wonder bullets..38 Special Target Wadcutters are soft, and slow which is great for some things, and not so much for others.
At no point did I state or imply there were.There are no magic bullets
Dump pouches, second six, matich quick load.....ahhh those were the daysWhen I was in high school, pre-1974, the front lawn was a daily mini-Woodstock. One day, there was a big fight there, and the police were called to restore order.
There was some grappling with the cops involved, before they took control.
At the site of the wrasslin, I found six nickel cased Remington 148gn wadcutter 38’s that fell out of a cops dump pouch.
I like the 38spl a lot. I sometimes carry a 4” Model 10 or 15, and have been known to slip a Model 38 in my pocket.
I like the Remington 158gn LWSCHP +P or the short barrel Gold Dot 135gn.
I’d be fine with hot loaded hard cast 148gn WC’s, but at that point, might as well use 158gn SWC’s. Easier to use with speedloaders.
Not just one, but a double 'no', yet you provided no details.
Can you provide the links to the news reports of incidents that would result in such an opinion?
I would love to see the details, especially considering the 148gr WC has had such an excellent reputation over many many decades. Especially such details that would prove a different bullet type would have prompted a double 'yes'.
Interesting.....I was a big city cop in Texas before the internet. There are no "links" I worked some very rough places and saw many people shot with various things. That is how I came to my opinions. As I got older and talked with other cops from other areas during the revolver era with similar experience they have the same opinions I do.
Where did you see it had an "excellent" rep? NYPD? They suck. I met and spoke with Jim Cirillo when he taught at FLETC. They had a choice at one time..... LRN or wadcutter......
A 380 ACP with anything is a better choice that a 38 Special standard velocity anything from a snubby. A snubby really neuters an already anemic round. When the 38 Special was found to be acceptable was when fired from 5" and 6" BBL's. In the mid-late 1960's when cops switched to 4" BBL's you saw a drastic drop in effectiveness.
The reason many cops carried such crappy ammo was a series of issues. Some departments would not allow magnums. Some departments would not allow hollow points. The NYPD and CHP come to mind. The CHP issued 357 mag revolvers but very few of their cops were ever authorized magnums.
I was fortunate, the PD (Ft Worth, TX) I worked for allowed any commercially made HP's in 357 magnum or 38 special, I carried maggies in my 6" L frame and before that my 4" model 66.
During the 1980's the DFW area was extremely tumultuous. I went from there to El Paso, TX with the USBP.
A wonderful example being the Sam Brown shooting where the officer made four double action shots under 1.5 sec, and delivered four upper torso hits from about 20ft. One of those 148gr wadcutters passed through Browns humerus yet still punched his heart, another passed through his shoulder blade and punched the opposite lung.
Well then..... Carry what you want.Interesting.....
All that yet I still do not see any actual details/specifics, just platitudes and vague anecdotes.
ussr, were the bullets you showed the old "Alberts/Taurus Bullets" swagged HP bullets from many years ago?