Do any of you use 38 Special Wadcutter for SD?
- Thread starter dontcatchmany
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Jim Watson
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NYPD found the semiwadcutter little if any better than roundnose.
You can get jacketed hollowpoints like Gold Dot Short Barrel that will expand, or naked lead hollowpoints.
Revolver softpoints seldom expand. I think going all the way down to wadcutters is overreacting. Some nice magnum or special +p hollowpoints would be my choice.
Not just one, but a double 'no', yet you provided no details.
Can you provide the links to the news reports of incidents that would result in such an opinion?
I would love to see the details, especially considering the 148gr WC has had such an excellent reputation over many many decades. Especially such details that would prove a different bullet type would have prompted a double 'yes'.
It may not be very 'powerful' but it drives deep and does in fact punch nice holes in giblets.
Does it expand...? Nope
But anyone who consistently hunts with non-rifle calibers can tell you that expansion has little to no practical effect. Sure jello 'tests' sell lots of $2.00 per round ammunition in pretty packages, but in reality expansion doesn't do what most folks think it does.
Placement trumps all else, followed by penetration.
Put them in either order, you need both for maximum effectiveness. And, of the two, I put penetration ahead of placement, but only because penetration does some damage, even if its not in the needed spot. Placement in the right spot doesn't get you much if the bullet doesn't penetrate enough.
One is King, and the other, Queen, you decide which is which, but you need them both together, to rule.
Not considered to be good 'man stoppers'?
Care to share your data sets on that?
Especially considering their reputation as being excellent 'man stoppers' over many decades.
Aside from essentially perfect deep penetration, they offer the shooter the ability to deliver fast accurate follow-up shots. A wonderful example being the Sam Brown shooting where the officer made four double action shots under 1.5 sec, and delivered four upper torso hits from about 20ft. One of those 148gr wadcutters passed through Browns humerus yet still punched his heart, another passed through his shoulder blade and punched the opposite lung.
As for 'proper shot placement', what service caliber makes up for an improperly placed shot?
Yet the majority of modern 38 Special loads penetrate LESS than the standard wadcutter.
This includes many +P and +p+ loads (with their much more significant recoils & blast).
This brings up the fact that most who decry the load as 'not being powerful' assume the round doesn't penetrate, this just shows a lack of real world experience.
It's very easy to load those yourself. Can't figure out how to post a screen shot of an Alliant load book, so go here and look at page 16: http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/r...s/17-alliant-reloading-manuals/57-alliant2001 W-231 would be a good powder for this too, but I don't have load data for it.
I would, if I had any, but data proving a negative is notoriously difficult to find, and its not something I was ever interested in collecting. Sorry.
I do, however, wonder why, if the standard .38 Special Target Wadcutter ammo is the "bees knees" for stopping power, why has no police agency ever issued it for service use? Has everyone been wrong for the past century??
I don't mean to imply that it can't work, or won't work, just that if it worked as well, or better than other things, then I think it would have been used by someone, somewhere so there would be a body of proof, not just a few individual shootings. If such exists, I am unaware of it.
The wadcutter concept works well, semi wadcutters work well, very well when bullet alloy and velocity are properly matched to the intended task.
.38 Special Target Wadcutters are soft, and slow which is great for some things, and not so much for others.
There are no magic bullets, and you can find examples where the most unlikely things have worked and the most highly touted things have failed.
Nothing to do with "proving a negative", rather it's about supporting your own assertion.
One would reasonably assume that someone making such a bold statement would have some sort of factual basis with which to form such.
The term 'stopping power' is not one I used.
Further, the term itself is gibberish and I simply do not understand how people can rationally use it.
Do you have a source for this assertion?
You do know that for the majority of the 20th century, when revolvers saw their most prodigious use in law enforcement, the majority of LEOs supplied their own weapons and ammunition.....don't you?
As compared to the body of proof you used to state they are 'not considered good man stoppers'?
Just say'n....
Ok, I'm all ears, show me the metrics, the considerations, the data, and the body of proof to from this 'positive' assertion, that would then negate the 'negative'. I've got my bucket-o-popcorn, a big-gulp, and comfy chair.....
I find it interesting that you keep referring to alloy/softness and inferred that is a negative trait. Yet in the real world they generally tend to not deform to any significant degree (or even at all). Most of the slugs I've recovered over the last four decades could have been reloaded with little effort, the few that did, struck bone and usually deformed less than modern wonder bullets. And yet they all worked beautifully as intended, something I can't say for many modern wonder bullets.
I guess that's just how things go when one basis their comments on real world experience versus......well.....frankly, I'm not sure what.
At no point did I state or imply there were.
Yet you are wholly denouncing one apparently based on no hard data or first hand experience.
I do find this fascinating, especially considering the topic of 38 Special out of a short barrel. The majority of modern $2.00 per round 'wonder bullets' actually fail or under perform in the categories that so many believe important, often at the expense of higher blast/recoil.
Do you ever get out to the SouthWest? If so you've got an open invitation to our ranch and come on a handgun hunt with the lowly 38 wadcutter. We can do a little video and maybe even a side by side comparison with your perceived 'better' short-barrel 38 Special load.
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When I was in high school, pre-1974, the front lawn was a daily mini-Woodstock. One day, there was a big fight there, and the police were called to restore order.
There was some grappling with the cops involved, before they took control.
At the site of the wrasslin, I found six nickel cased Remington 148gn wadcutter 38’s that fell out of a cops dump pouch.
I like the 38spl a lot. I sometimes carry a 4” Model 10 or 15, and have been known to slip a Model 38 in my pocket.
I like the Remington 158gn LWSCHP +P or the short barrel Gold Dot 135gn.
I’d be fine with hot loaded hard cast 148gn WC’s, but at that point, might as well use 158gn SWC’s. Easier to use with speedloaders.
There was some grappling with the cops involved, before they took control.
At the site of the wrasslin, I found six nickel cased Remington 148gn wadcutter 38’s that fell out of a cops dump pouch.
I like the 38spl a lot. I sometimes carry a 4” Model 10 or 15, and have been known to slip a Model 38 in my pocket.
I like the Remington 158gn LWSCHP +P or the short barrel Gold Dot 135gn.
I’d be fine with hot loaded hard cast 148gn WC’s, but at that point, might as well use 158gn SWC’s. Easier to use with speedloaders.
Dump pouches, second six, matich quick load.....ahhh those were the days
As for reloads, I always use a round profile bullet in my SL variants to aid in the process.
I would never use a full or even semi-wadcutter as backup, too much risk for fumbling.
Of course the odds of needing to reload in a self defense situation is slim at best.
Now werwolf attack is another matter......
I was a big city cop in Texas before the internet. There are no "links" I worked some very rough places and saw many people shot with various things. That is how I came to my opinions. As I got older and talked with other cops from other areas during the revolver era with similar experience they have the same opinions I do.
Where did you see it had an "excellent" rep? NYPD? They suck. I met and spoke with Jim Cirillo when he taught at FLETC. They had a choice at one time..... LRN or wadcutter......
A 380 ACP with anything is a better choice that a 38 Special standard velocity anything from a snubby. A snubby really neuters an already anemic round. When the 38 Special was found to be acceptable was when fired from 5" and 6" BBL's. In the mid-late 1960's when cops switched to 4" BBL's you saw a drastic drop in effectiveness.
The reason many cops carried such crappy ammo was a series of issues. Some departments would not allow magnums. Some departments would not allow hollow points. The NYPD and CHP come to mind. The CHP issued 357 mag revolvers but very few of their cops were ever authorized magnums.
I was fortunate, the PD (Ft Worth, TX) I worked for allowed any commercially made HP's in 357 magnum or 38 special, I carried maggies in my 6" L frame and before that my 4" model 66.
During the 1980's the DFW area was extremely tumultuous. I went from there to El Paso, TX with the USBP.
Interesting.....
All that yet I still do not see any actual details/specifics, just platitudes and vague anecdotes.
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It really gets tiresome reading all of the dogmatic statements about these things.
No, I don't use them but I would if I had to. I would rather use them than a lot of other things that can be had.
To start with, every bit of the human body is unique and a shot three inches to the left or right will have a different effect than any other. Much of the time, changing the location of the hit can change how well the bullet will work.
there are two goals in a shooting. Deep wounds and wide wounds. both are good. Deep and narrow is better than shallow and wide. IMO.
You can work with tiny, needle pointed FMJ 9mm loads and get what may be the worst combat performance possible for a true combat round. It will zip through at a caliber sized opening and do little more damage than a big screwdriver. Using a much heavier lrn bullet in .38 special will obviously have lower velocity, but it may deform and mushroom, it may go deeper because of the mass. Maybe. Remember that three inch to one side rule?
To switch to a semi wadcutter lead will cause more damage as it passes through, but not much. It will still give deep penetration in a narrow hole. to switch to a standard hollow point of primitive design will be very little improvement, many of the rounds based on eighties and before technology aren't good at expanding under anything but ideal conditions.
The target wad cutter is the slowest round, a lighter round, and a round almost certain to punch through leaving a relatively deep narrow wound.
That thing has no positives. Low velocity, low weight, no expansion possible. You could improve it immensely by just using a semi wadcutter 158 grain round with a few more fps and 10 grains of extra weight.
I would carry the wadcutters If I had to and wouldn't be afraid of dying, the bullet isn't what decides survival.
I would choose a modern hollow point such as gold dot.IF I found normal ammo intolerable, I would choose a lower velocity keith hollow point and go to lead wadcutter as the last choice. Then I'd shoot for the center of the chest and let the chips fall.
No, I don't use them but I would if I had to. I would rather use them than a lot of other things that can be had.
To start with, every bit of the human body is unique and a shot three inches to the left or right will have a different effect than any other. Much of the time, changing the location of the hit can change how well the bullet will work.
there are two goals in a shooting. Deep wounds and wide wounds. both are good. Deep and narrow is better than shallow and wide. IMO.
You can work with tiny, needle pointed FMJ 9mm loads and get what may be the worst combat performance possible for a true combat round. It will zip through at a caliber sized opening and do little more damage than a big screwdriver. Using a much heavier lrn bullet in .38 special will obviously have lower velocity, but it may deform and mushroom, it may go deeper because of the mass. Maybe. Remember that three inch to one side rule?
To switch to a semi wadcutter lead will cause more damage as it passes through, but not much. It will still give deep penetration in a narrow hole. to switch to a standard hollow point of primitive design will be very little improvement, many of the rounds based on eighties and before technology aren't good at expanding under anything but ideal conditions.
The target wad cutter is the slowest round, a lighter round, and a round almost certain to punch through leaving a relatively deep narrow wound.
That thing has no positives. Low velocity, low weight, no expansion possible. You could improve it immensely by just using a semi wadcutter 158 grain round with a few more fps and 10 grains of extra weight.
I would carry the wadcutters If I had to and wouldn't be afraid of dying, the bullet isn't what decides survival.
I would choose a modern hollow point such as gold dot.IF I found normal ammo intolerable, I would choose a lower velocity keith hollow point and go to lead wadcutter as the last choice. Then I'd shoot for the center of the chest and let the chips fall.
bamaranger
New member
S&W M36
I keep a Chief as a second gun when we travel, pretty much so bamawife can be armed if I leave the vehicle for any reason. The simple nature of the DA revolver and the light weight and size of the gun suit her. Shooting is not her thing,.... but she can shoot. But bamawife is very petite, and only ammo she can tolerate in the Chief is .38 WC, so that is what is on board.
I keep a Chief as a second gun when we travel, pretty much so bamawife can be armed if I leave the vehicle for any reason. The simple nature of the DA revolver and the light weight and size of the gun suit her. Shooting is not her thing,.... but she can shoot. But bamawife is very petite, and only ammo she can tolerate in the Chief is .38 WC, so that is what is on board.