Do any limits pass constitutional muster?

Do any limitations pass constitutional muster? (chose all that apply)

  • Instant background checks at time of purchase (w/in 60-90 minutes)

    Votes: 33 37.9%
  • Registration at time of purchase only.

    Votes: 6 6.9%
  • FFL required to sell guns as a business.

    Votes: 25 28.7%
  • FFL required for selling full auto weapons & explosives

    Votes: 35 40.2%
  • Minimum age limits to purchase firearms (may be varied by type)

    Votes: 44 50.6%
  • Weapons with a bores over 16mm require special storage/security.

    Votes: 5 5.7%
  • Restrictions on storage of explosive munitions (e.g. not in residential zones).

    Votes: 27 31.0%
  • Prohibition possession of WMDs (nuclear, biological or lethal chemical).

    Votes: 57 65.5%
  • Requirement to secure weapons against burglary when not home.

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Permits for concealed carry, but not open carry.

    Votes: 10 11.5%
  • Laws limiting AP pistol ammo and restricting tracer ammo.

    Votes: 6 6.9%
  • Prohibit convicted felons possessing handguns or full-autos only.

    Votes: 38 43.7%
  • Prohibiton against mental incompetents possessing firearms.

    Votes: 48 55.2%
  • Limitations on purchase, storage of crew-served weapons (artillery, tanks, etc.)

    Votes: 24 27.6%
  • Restrictions on the size/length of long guns (rifles, shotguns, etc.)

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 6 6.9%
  • No limits. I can own anything I want, anywhere

    Votes: 20 23.0%

  • Total voters
    87
  • Poll closed .
Let me try again.
As a responsible citizen, MY rights are absolute (or would be if we actually followed the Constitution). If I were to commit a crime, my rights would be limited, at least during the time of my incarceration.
The problem is, you are trying to group individual rights.
How about this? Individual's rights are absolute unless they are in a "common sense" group that would require that they be limited. Sample groups would be children and incarcerated criminals.
Does that work for you?
It lets you and me have absolute rights while limiting your "people in jail" group.
Happy now?

But thats not what you said just a minute ago. The second amendment isn't just for "responsible citizens".

But I do agree with what you wrote here, specifically that individual's rights are absolute unless they are in a "common sense" group that would require that they be limited. Of course I'd add felons and the mentally ill. If you agree children shouldn't have guns then you can't possibly disagree that mentally ill shouldn't since the reasons for prohibition are the same. Likewise with felons. There are many more violent felonies than just rape and murder that don't result in a lifetime sentence. Its just "common sense" for these people not to have them.

Of course if the 2A is absolute as you say then your "common sense" approach is totally invalid. Which one are you going to stick with.
 
?Arms? I can't find any limits of what I can have classified as arms in the sec Amendment!

There is and always has been a distiction between arms and ordinance. There is today and there was back in the 1700's. The right to bear arms doesn't include a cannon or a howitzer or a tank or a nuclear weapon.
 
MY second amendment rights are absolute. Government cannot limit them, based on the Constitution.

And, if you insist that the second can't be absolute without allowing prisoners to possess, then okay, fine, let them possess and shoot them if they misbehave.

Or, maybe we can look at the fifth: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It looks like the fifth allows, under the correct circumstances, the seizure of a persons things. And I'll just bet we can stretch that to include Arms.
 
Don't be snippy, just answer the question. If "shall not be infringed" is absolute then people in prison should be able to have firearms right?
No, that's incorrect, and inconsistent with the absolute right to self defense.

Suspension of access to rights for felony conviction is the same as suspension of rights for non compos mentis and for children. We don't let any of those groups sign contracts, yet the right to contract is another Constitutional guarantee, and other things. All rights are based on competent adult, children have rights with access controlled by adults.

The notion that this means that rights aren't absolute is wrong.

Arms= Armaments! I don't read any mention of Ordinance!
Ordnance is an arm.

There is and always has been a distiction between arms and ordinance. There is today and there was back in the 1700's. The right to bear arms doesn't include a cannon or a howitzer or a tank or a nuclear weapon.
An arm includes all of those weapons, there is no limit to arms possession which the government may place on any of the people. As soon as you grant government the power to restrict a right, government moves that right into a privilege.
 
Or, maybe we can look at the fifth

You just typed out the Fourth dude.


What is with this nonsense about allowing ten year olds to buy an AR?

Ten year old kids have no money. They have no car to get to the gunshop with. They are the responsibilty of their parents and are limited by their parents decisions about what little Tommy or Suzi can have. How on god's green Earth are they going to get an AR?

If the kid has the money and mommy or daddy are willing to allow the kid to posess the weapon in the appropriate enviornment then why wouldn't we allow a kid to pick and pay for his/her gun.

I am so sick of folks acting like children aren't citizens until they come of age. They are humans and have they very same rights adults. In fact, they have more rights because they are incapable of protecting/feeding/clothing and sheltering themselves the way adults can.
 
No, that's incorrect, and inconsistent with the absolute right to self defense.

Suspension of access to rights for felony conviction is the same as suspension of rights for non compos mentis and for children. We don't let any of those groups sign contracts, yet the right to contract is another Constitutional guarantee, and other things. All rights are based on competent adult, children have rights with access controlled by adults.

The notion that this means that rights aren't absolute is wrong.

Its really simple. If rights are absolute then there isn't any valid restriction that can be placed upon them. If there are reasonable restrictions then they are not absolute. I shouldn't have to explain to you folks what absolute means, but it apparently it is slipping your minds.

This nonsense about competent adults is just that. In one sentence you are saying that the 2A means exactly what it says and nothing should be added to it, and in the next sentence you say that it needs to be viewed in "context". You cant have it both ways.

Ordnance is an arm.

No its not. The 2A doesn't give you a right to own C4. Like I said, ordinance and arms are two different things. This is a legitimate distinction that has been around for hundreds of years.

There is no legal document anywhere that gives any legitimacy to the notion that the government cannot have anything a private citizen cannot own. Thats ridiculous and if you think about it, kind of impossible. The government by its nature exists to do things that people as individuals cannot do themselves. Thats the reason the government has the ability to have an army and a navy and all the things that go with it (you remember the necesary and proper clause right?)
 
I'm in the "rights are subject to limits" group here. If a law does not adversely affect your're ability to own and buy guns, then that's not infringement in my opinion. On the list in the poll, I'm ok with #1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 13, and 14. It looks like a good number of other people feel the same way.

In today's society, I really don't want 10 year old kids running around with AR's. In case you haven't noticed, our society and its children have lost their moral compass! Ron Paul was quoting as saying, "In order to have a free society, you have to have a moral society". Its a pathetic state of affairs, but our current society is having trouble with freedom and responsibility. "With great freedom, comes great responsibility". Therin lies the problem, in today's society, there is no personal responsibility or accountability.

I was appalled today watching a CNN peice on video games this morning, they asked a black 12 year old kid why he liked a certain game, he said "Because I get to kill people".:eek: What are the odds this kid will be in jail by the time he is 18?
 
For those who claim the 2A is an absolute right due to the "infringement" clause need to consider something.

If it's unlimited and absolute, that means having a WMD is legal for a six year old child as well as you, your neighbor or the unemployed sanitation worker on the next block. Sure, sure... as long as he doesn't do any harm... though any one of these people becoming bitter and suicidal will not be worried about some government agency filtering their remains out of the troposphere to put him on trial.

And by the way, C.D.Hands -- that's just one reason WMDs are probably safer in the hands of a government than a private party. We can add other things like physical security and maintenance to that list.

Your right to own arms suitiable to militia purposes can be revoked if you commit a serious crime. Those who are not peaceable citizens can be denied the use of arms.
(Ref: "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; ..." -- Samuel Adams, Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788)

As to "militia arms" we can look to the Militia Act to see what is required of your average "grunt".


Section I: ...That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of power and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and power-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a power[sic] of power[sic]; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

Militia members were instructed to provide themselves with a good musket or rifle, 20-24 rounds of ammunition, bayonet, backpack and a pouch to hold the ammo. This translates, by my rough estimates, to about 10 minutes worth of ammo. In today's world, that would probably require you to show up with 60 rounds in magazines and at least 140 rounds in a bandolier. I could live with that. :p

Section IV:
...The officers to be armed with a sword or hanger, a fusee, bayonet and belt, with a cartridge box to contain twelve cartridges; and each private of matoss shall furnish themselves with good horses of at least fourteen hands and an half high, and to be armed with a sword and pair of pistols, the holsters of which to be covered with bearskin caps. Each dragoon to furnish himself with a serviceable horse, at least fourteen hands and an half high, a good saddle, bridle, mail-pillion and valise, holster, and a best [sic] plate and crupper, a pair of boots and spurs; a pair of pistols, a sabre, and a cartouchbox to contain twelve cartridges for pistols.

This is to point out that the Milita Act requires pistols of some members, thus the anti-gun argument that handguns are not "militia arms" or "commonly in use by the military" (for combat) is completely void and without merit.

As to artillery and ordinance, the Militia Act specifies the formation of a company of Artillery;
That out of the militia enrolled as is herein directed, there shall be formed for each battalion, as least one company of grenadiers, light infantry or riflemen; and that each division there shall be, at least, one company of artillery, and one troop of horse:

So we see references to the use of "grenadiers" -- grenade throwers -- and a company of artillery. Yet nowhere in the act does it mention the militia members being responsible to provide their own artillery or grenades. Nor does it specify that the State or Federal government will provide such equipment. My best educated guess is, that the expense of these items was (and is) too much of a financial burden for a single militia member and that the state or federal authorities would make provisions (however meager) for them.

It is from the above requirements that I get my own personal viewpoint of what constitutes a "militia arm". To redefine it in modern terms, it would be any firearm that can be carried afield by the average fit soldier along with 120 rounds of ammunition without assistance.

I don't know too many soldiers short of special forces guys who could (or would) carry a 20mm into the field. A fit man could likely carry a Barrett .50BMG and ammo though. I've known only about 5 men in my life who have carried an M2 (.50 cal BMG) into the field, most of them very large. But even then, the ammo carrier had the tripod on his back.

And...getting away from firearms for the moment, "arms" also specifically includes edged weapons in the form of a sword, sabre or bayonet. We can surmise that smaller knives and cutting weapons were also carried for those bloody hand-to-hand engagements. It also includes "body armor" as the Dragoons were to provide themselves a "breast plate" for protection.
 
No its not. The 2A doesn't give you a right to own C4. Like I said, ordinance and arms are two different things. This is a legitimate distinction that has been around for hundreds of years.
The restriction on possession of explosives has been around for just about 40 years, since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, with updates and so forth.

Prior to that, explosives were used, possessed, and stored by anyone who wished to have them. Dynamite was freely available to anyone who wished to own it.

In the early days of the republic, anyone with the money to do so could own the fanciest rifle, multi-barreled gun, canon, and as much explosive as they could pay for.

The Second Amendment is to protect a pre-existing right to self defense with any arm. Any arm means any weapons of any kind I think is necessary to enable defense of myself, my family, my neighbors, and my nation. That includes pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, rockets, grenades, explosives, and "every terrible implement of the soldier"*

The "WMD" and "armed child" are straw man arguments that have been around for quite a while. Brady/Handgun Control, Inc. invented them.


*Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people." Tench Coxe, one of the founders of the republic.
 
The restriction on possession of explosives has been around for just about 40 years, since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, with updates and so forth.

Prior to that, explosives were used, possessed, and stored by anyone who wished to have them. Dynamite was freely available to anyone who wished to own it.

In the early days of the republic, anyone with the money to do so could own the fanciest rifle, multi-barreled gun, canon, and as much explosive as they could pay for.

And? Because one day the government didn't regulate something and the next day it did has no bearing on whether its a right. If something isn't a right then it is irrelevant how long the government decides to allow it.


The Second Amendment is to protect a pre-existing right to self defense with any arm. Any arm means any weapons of any kind I think is necessary to enable defense of myself, my family, my neighbors, and my nation. That includes pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, rockets, grenades, explosives, and "every terrible implement of the soldier"*

The 2A may protect a preexisting right to self defense, but as with anything codified, it las been limited to what is written and what is rational. I have a pre-existing right to do what I want with my own body, but that doesn't mean that I can walk down the street naked.

As far as nuclear weapons being a straw man or a brady technique, thats irrelevant as well. If something is legitimate, its legitimate regarless of who uses it. According to the world of Pat, citizens should own nuclear weapons. Not only is this not protected by the 2A, but its insane and completely dangerous. Even if someone had no ill intentions, the damage caused by a mistake would be ridiculous.

And this brings me to my final point. Since according to you, your 2A rights extended from a pre-existing right to self defense, your own argument prohibits you from claiming that the 2A guarantees you the right to own explosives, nuclear weapons or anything of the kind. There will never be a situation where you would be legally (or morally) entitled to use a missile to defend yourself for many reasons including the collateral damage it would cause.
 
The Second Amendment is to protect a pre-existing right to self defense with any arm. Any arm means any weapons of any kind I think is necessary to enable defense of myself, my family, my neighbors, and my nation. That includes pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns, rockets, grenades, explosives, and "every terrible implement of the soldier"*

I think there is an argument ad iudicium* here that self-defense does not require area-denial munitions like claymores, C4, napalm or grenades. And certainly it can be said that claiming ICBMs and WMDs for self-defense is an argument in absurdum.

The "WMD" and "armed child" are straw man arguments that have been around for quite a while. Brady/Handgun Control, Inc. invented them.

Prior to the '68GCA, your 10 year old could walk into a local hardware store, plunk down something like $27.50 and another 68 cents for ammo, then walk out of the store with an inexpensive .22LR rifle. We did not see mass shootings at schools, restaurants, or shopping centers either. But then, we didn't drug our kids or subject them to idiotic zero-tolerance polices in schools either.

In the early days of the republic, anyone with the money to do so could own the fanciest rifle, multi-barreled gun, canon, and as much explosive as they could pay for.

I think this is something of a red herring argument. In the early days of our Republic, if one wanted to use dynamite, obtaining 20 or 50 pounds of it was easily done since it often required a full day's ride to a merchant. One could travel 5-10 minutes out of town and shoot into a local hillside. In some places, one could simply claim land by occupying it with any form of a permanent structure. One could also die from a broken ankle, serious cut, diarrhea or the flu as well. I like to think we've made some progress since then.


For the latin impaired:
* ad iudicium: To common sense
 
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