Dillon 9 x 25 dies

@ 9 x 45: I don't know, but I think I may have found a work-around solution--I took a hornady 9mm luger expander die and opened the neck up, seated a bullet (90 grain sirerra JHP here) and then crimped with the Dillon crimp die.



However--you can see the neck bulges slightly from the bullet--the OD is around .002 in excess of the specs--don't know how much of a difference that will make. I guess I'll need a case gauge and drop-test each cartridge in the barrel chamber (what I do with my 10mm loads anyway).
 
Step, a 9mm die would be correct. Here is a pic of my .357SIG brass after going thru the Dillon 550. Right to left, after processing in walnut and corn media tumbling, .380", after re-size and de-prime, .373" and after powder thru bell drop, .386". Forming brass is difficult business, but the only source of 9x25 new brass is DoubleTap, at $285 per 1,000.....wow! I pay $40 per 1,000 .357SIGs, once fired, indoor, Speer Lawman.

What appears to be a scratch on the center case is just the reflection of the primer follower rod.

image37299.jpg
 
Your shoulder angles and transition to neck and main case body sure look a lot better and smoother than mine. So your finished case is on the left end?
 
Stagpanther,

It appears some confusion has occurred. There are two kinds of expander. You have one in your sizing die, but not the other.

The problem the die maker has with any standard resizing die or even with roll sizing equipment is that brass has a wall thickness tolerance, so when the mouth of the case is withdrawn from the die, the inside diameter will vary by that tolerance. The one-size-fits-all-brass solution is to make the neck diameter inside the die small enough to adequately resize the thinnest brass in the tolerance range far enough to still succeed in gripping a bullet. Then, because most brass will not be that thin and will therefore be over-resized, use an expander to set the undersized neck ID for a bullet start in.

There are two approaches to this. The kind of expander you have is generally in all sizing dies made for bottleneck cases. It expands the mouth of the bottleneck case as you withdraw it from the die to give minimum necessary bullet hold. In a bottleneck case, this solves two problems. One is to make the grip on the bullet uniform, which matters to accuracy. (Normally, this is a rifle accuracy level consideration.) Second, by not asking the bullet to expand the case mouth too much, the risk of collapsing the case at the shoulder with excessive seating force is minimized. If it weren't for this latter consideration, you could bell the mouth of an over-resized rifle case and let the bullet do all it own expanding, though this tends to allow the bullet to tilt more during seating, affecting accuracy. The amount of effect is on the order of 1 moa worst case added scatter, so you don't usually notice it at typical handgun ranges.

To prevent scraping copper off bullets and further reduce the chance of collapsing a shoulder, normal practice is to chamfer cases expanded that way with a chamfering tool. If you've had to trim cases, you also chamfer again plus deburr the outside of the mouths with the other end of that tool. This needs to be done the first time you form and load the case and again after any subsequent trimming you might find necessary.

Commercial ammunition makers typically do not chamfer cases, simply tumbling the sharp edges off after cutting the neck to final length. However, many times I've seen small rings of copper scraped off the sides of bullets being seated in the unchamfered brass. This is another thing whose affects are most notable in rifle cartridges, affecting both accuracy and, in some chambers, metal fouling.

That first kind of expander cannot be used sizing in sizing dies for straight wall cases. A carbide sizing ring would just squeeze the expansion back out again, and a full length steel die wouldn't let it fit together with a case. So, belling the case mouth to prevent the bullet catching on it and in lieu of chamfering, and then letting the bullet do its own expanding of the case neck works well enough with handgun cartridges. The shoulderless sides of a straight or nearly straight case creates support column geometry that is much more resistant to collapse than a bottleneck case is. The only problem with belled case mouths is bullet tilt with seating this way is commonly large if the seating die isn't custom made for the bullet nose.

To check for tilt, look where the bullet base heel is mirrored in the case surface as a slight bump up in diameter of the case wall. It is often more pronounced on one side of the case than the other. This is due to bullet tilt. It doesn't seem to affect jacketed pistol bullets much that I can tell, but can make cast bullets significantly less accurate. It may be virtually eliminated as described below.

It is this second kind of expander function that the operating/drop tube of the Dillon powder measure performs. If you have that, you skip chamfering. However, getting the second kind of expander function is easy using either the inexpensive Lee Universal Neck Expanding Die, or, my personal preference, a Lyman Multi-Expander Die.

The latter die costs twice as much, but it comes with inserts for all common handgun calibers, and not just 9 mm. It puts a small step in the case (see below) that the bullet sets into, forcing it to start straight into the case. This virtually eliminates bullet tilt. It is also a powder-through die, which is convenient if you throw charges either from an electronic weighing dispenser or from scoops (you still need a funnel) and it has female threads at the top that accommodate standard threaded powder measures. The belling is also called flaring. Whatever mouth expansion of this kind you do is ironed out by setting your seating die's crimp shoulder down just far enough to remove it, or by using a separate crimp die.

Case%20Flare%20Style%20showing%20tilt_zpspxacapfz.gif
 
Step, the case on the left is after powder thru expander die and just before seating. The cases look good because they started out as .357SIG, and not swaged down 40S&Ws, that's all.

Here is a finished round after seat and crimp. Montana Gold 125 gr JHP on top of 7.8 grains of BE-86 (base of bullet touches top of powderc charge) at 1.140" OAL and goes about 1,400 fps out of a Glock 31, OEM barrel.

My 9mm minor loads (140 floor) are a 124 gr TC Bayou or a 125 gr conical Black and Blue bullet, both HiTeK coated. Both are on to of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup, the Bayous are 1.100” OAL and the Black and Blues are 1.130”, both go about 1,140 fps.


image37300.jpg


image37301.jpg
 
Thanks for the great info uncle nick! I already chamfer all my cases no matter what--but I can see the bullet tilt like you describe. I already use Lee case crimp dies--love em--especially the collet ones. The hornady expander opened the neck up perfectly but I'm not sure the seating is adequate--obviously I'll need a learning curve. This is a tricky little son of gun--it sorta falls between a straight case and bottleneck since it has a slight shoulder. I think Lee makes a crimp die for the 9 x 25--which I will get if they do since theircrimp dies tend to be really good about uniforming the OD and straightening the neck out
 
Step, Lee does make a crimp die for that, you could actually use the same one for the .357SIG. I use it because it has a floating collet on it so you don't have to trim the brass to exact length, which you have to do with standard dies, or risk squashing the neck.

image37216.jpg
 
Stag at the range..... Wow, sure is bright in here, warm too... and loud!


image37302.jpg
 
Last edited:
Stag at the range..... Wow, sure is bright in here, warm too... and load!


http://californiavtxriders.com/phpBB...image37302.jpg
__________________
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
Nice--but in the "flame-thrower category" not exceptional. : )

Now if you're into loud pyrotechnics that will blow up your rest bag and send showers of beads up, blowing your neighbor's targets off his bench and sending a flame out the muzzle even St Michael would be jealous of--have I got a full-power 44mag load powered by lil'gun for you. lol
 
My next attempt at a practice dummy round--improvement over the first.



I think I have the reforming down part pretty good--I've found I have to run the expander down pretty far into the case and also use a fair amount of pressure on the crimp to really get uniform neck results. There is still a bit of unevenness in the shoulder itself--but I'm hoping the use of virgin annealed brass will eliminate this (these practice loads are simply using once-fired 10 mm loads). I don't know how much of this might be due to compression of the brass into the shoulder area--and thus might be causing neck and shoulder thickness consistency issues.
 
Last edited:
Stagpanther,

Lee makes their Factory Crimp Die (FCD) in two flavors, rifle and bottleneck pistol, and they make their Carbide Factory Crimp Die (CFCD) for straight wall pistol. Only the latter controls the outside diameter of finished round. The design can only work with straight or nearly straight wall cases.

The two collet type FCD's differ in how the collet closes. The rifle type was the original, but they can't be made short enough for bottle neck pistol cartridges. They have designed their Short Bottle Neck Collet Style Factory Crimp Die using an inverted closing design to get past the lower length limit of the original FCD.

With only a couple of thousandths difference between the diameters of 9 mm and .357", using the Sig version of that crimp die with the 9×25 works. However, the 9×25 is about an eighth of an inch longer than the 357 SIG, so I expect you will land the crimp that much lower on the neck. You could put a 1/8" thick washer over each case during crimping to move that crimp nearer to the mouth. That may improve accuracy by avoiding indenting the bullet too near the base. The bullet's base is the most critical part for accuracy. You could also extend the collet closing extension (the part the shell holder touches) by engaging the washer to it. If you know someone with a lathe, they can make that part over for you with the extra length pretty easily. I'm sure Lee will do it for you for a fee.
 
Stagpanther,

Lee makes their Factory Crimp Die (FCD) in two flavors, rifle and bottleneck pistol, and they make their Carbide Factory Crimp Die (CFCD) for straight wall pistol. Only the latter controls the outside diameter of finished round. The design can only work with straight or nearly straight wall cases.

The two collet type FCD's differ in how the collet closes. The rifle type was the original, but they can't be made short enough for bottle neck pistol cartridges. They have designed their Short Bottle Neck Collet Style Factory Crimp Die using an inverted closing design to get past the lower length limit of the original FCD.

With only a couple of thousandths difference between the diameters of 9 mm and .357", using the Sig version of that crimp die with the 9×25 works. However, the 9×25 is about an eighth of an inch longer than the 357 SIG, so I expect you will land the crimp that much lower on the neck. You could put a 1/8" thick washer over each case during crimping to move that crimp nearer to the mouth. That may improve accuracy by avoiding indenting the bullet too near the base. The bullet's base is the most critical part for accuracy. You could also extend the collet closing extension (the part the shell holder touches) by engaging the washer to it. If you know someone with a lathe, they can make that part over for you with the extra length pretty easily. I'm sure Lee will do it for you for a fee.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
I'm going to wait and see what the results are like for virgin brass--I've already considered the 357 sig route and may try that. I think the Lee bottleneck pistol type cartridge die set-up is pretty expensive--I thought about posting on numerous forums about maybe getting a group limited run going--but I suspect most people have simply opted for the 357 sig route.
 
Like the .357SIG, you have to be careful with bullet choice because of the short neck. You can use 9mm in .355" and .356" diameter, and even .357" diameter, but you want a straight wall.


L to R
Montana Gold 125 JHP, .355" dia
Bayou 124 TC coated, .356" dia
Hornady XTP 125 JHP, .357" dia

image37304.jpg
 
Last edited:
Stag,

If you want Lee to make a custom one for 9×25, it will be $37 with postage and 8 weeks waiting (according to their web site). The 357 SIG version is available at Titan Reloading for $18.75. I don't know what their shipping charges will be, though. You may want to check around to see who has the best price when you include S&H.
 
Thanks guys--got a little side-tracked with installing a new trigger into an AR--I think my new brass gets here tomorrow. I guess the advantage of lee making one is that they get their OD measurements from spent brass you send them. The majority of 9mm bullets I have are theoretically .355--at least it says so on the boxes.
 
Last edited:
LW barrel arrived this morning--fit in gun is perfect--I put a stock 17# main spring on because that's what LW told me to do--not sure why (barrel mass??) since it's a significant recoil force cartridge--but I have a full set of springs if needs be.



I drop tested my practice dummy rounds--and the rim faces are all a few thousandths above flush with the ramp face--would probably work--but I know from experience problems would develop eventually. I drop tested a formed case and it sits flush--but after seating a bullet (no matter how gently I do it) enough material is displaced that it's causing the problem--and since the dillon crimp die uses the unsupported "forcing cone" scheme that the seating die does, while it does uniform the neck itself, it does not solve the problem elsewhere in the case. These dillon dies I'm beginning to thing are awfully expensive in relation to what you get.:(
 
Back
Top