Dilemma - Law vs. Self Reliance

[20cows]

als54

20 cows, is that law in all 50 states?

The law I mention is a Texas state law, part of our concealed carry law, but I believe with roots in previous state law. Other states would have their own take on the situation.

jefnvk

Obviously, you can't enroll her into a concealed carry class without drawing suspicion.

Actually she can. Not CCL class, but a defensive pistol class is definately legal and appropriate. I have taken such a class (an advanced one at that) in which one of the other students was still in high school. He did well and there was no suspision that he would do anything he shouldn't. With adult supervision it's "legal" for my 13 year old daughter to take such a class, if she has demonstrated the proper gun handling skills. I had my own revolver by then.

 

[20cows]

butch50

Good God 20Cows, I hope you are not challenging me to a duel?

Goodness, no! (I think we crossed threads from a different section). We apparently have a different take on a couple of philosophical points (in the other section), but on this topic we see eye to eye.

BTW, the self defense skills (mine are in aikido) are valuable in their place. The best use for me will be to hold them off till I can bring the artillery to bear.

You are hunting on your own land which may not be large enough for a classic fair chase hunt anyway.....

300 acres, mostly open country. Ususally have to catch them crossing my place from neighbor's cover to oppsite neighbor's cover. The cover is nicer for hunting, but my grass is better for livestock. Life is a trade-off.

 

[jefnvk]

Glad to see that you are going to oversee training, if you decide you are going through with it. I think too many times on these boards, people will just throw out opinions of doing illegal things, knowing that they don't take any risk. They will just advocate illegally carrying, without letting the person they are informing know the risks and rules of doing it.

And I do agree that a parent is often much more a better judge of their children than others. Not always, there are always those with the 'can o no evil' children, but most of the time they are the best judge. I am one of those people that most people would judge to be more mature than most 21 year olds, too many will put me in the mid to late 20's. However, being 19, I cannot do the things that 21 year olds can, just because someone decided that 21 is the maturity level.

20 cows, never thought of those. I was just thinking about the actual CCW class that anyone else would take.

 

[butch50]

20Cows, I certainly crossed threads there somehow. My bad, the offer still stands to share the info though.

Self defense skills are hard to come by, take years of intense practice, and are hard to retain without more constant practice. I do not denigrate them in the least, but respect the difficulty by which they are earned and retained. I also respect their limitations.

I did have one Karate instructor that I would not take on within 30 feet if my pistol was in a holster. No way, that man would get to me before I could pull it out. 30 feet is the bare minimum that I would think that I had a bare chance to draw and fire (condition one) and beat him.

Jefnvk: I am not (in my opinion) an internet ninja . You are right that I am not the most objective judge of her character, as no parent can be. But I am the most knowledgable judge of her character and so must make decisions based upon what I know about her character. Age and maturity are generally correlative, but not always and certainly not with any mathematical certainty.

 

[gc70]

Butch50, you're in a tough position. I think 00Spy actually made a pretty good argument that your daughter is playing you.

Did you kick your daughter out of your house and make her get her own place? Did you force her to take a job with late hours to pay her own way? I suspect that those were her decisions, and probably ones that you were not enthused about. Your daughter exercised her independence in making her decisions, but now she wants you to go out on a limb to fix the untidy details (danger) resulting from her decisions.

I don't disagree with you planned course of action, but this might be a good time to impress on your daughter that actions have ramifications and, as an adult, she is now responsible for both sides of the equation.

 

[butch50]

GC70:

We have already begun the "training" which consists at this point of basic safe handling techniques (as in when I hand this to you you will notice that I have pulled the slide back and verified that there is not a round in the chamber, and when I hand it to you you are to verify it for yourself even though you just saw me do it. I could be mistaken and it is your responsibility once your hands are on the gun to be safe, not mine, so check it every single time no matter what) sort of things.

We are also talking about what situations she can get into that will get her in deep trouble with the law, and when that deep trouble is worth getting into. In fact she will get pretty much the entire CCL class from me.

What I had not considered but is a good idea is enrolling her in a tactical self defense course, after she has learned and demonstrated the appropriate basic handling and marksmanship skills. I think that would be an excellent exercise for me and her to do together, especially since I have been thinking of doing it for myself anyway. You can never be too well trained.

On a side note: Anyone who has a daughter gets played, and if you have one and don't think you get played, guess again - they are born with the skill instinctively at the expert level and just get better and better as they get older......

 

[jefnvk]

Age and maturity are generally correlative, but not always and certainly not with any mathematical certainty.

Living in a college environment, oh how well I know that

Hope all comes out well for you two. Just remember to tell her that concealed means concealed, and I don't think there will be any problems.

 

[butch50]

We will probably modify a purse to have a secure holster sewn within it. Shouldn't be too hard to work up something like that.

 

[gc70]

Anyone who has a daughter gets played

It is not unique to daughters. I have two sons who are quite accomplished at playing me like a fiddle.

they are born with the skill instinctively at the expert level and just get better and better as they get older......

I have already noted the skill in my granddaughter - and she is not even a year old.

Good luck!

 

[payne]

Is your daughter going to college in TX or will it be outta state? Because some states allow you to have a carry permit at 18. My state (Alabama)allows carry at 18. You may want to check the state's laws about age if she's going out of state. Disregaurd this if she's staying in state.

 

[stevelyn]

I vote for self-reliance. If you think she's mature enough to handle the responsibility of owning, carrying and possibly deploying a handgun in an emergency, get her the gun. I know I wouldn't send my daughter out the door without one.
But then again, I live in the Free Republic of Alaska where self-reliance is valued and encouraged, and the only gun laws we have address actual misuse.

 

[jburtonpdx]

Butch50
You may want to consider convincing her to work at a mall. With the advancements in mall security lateley there could not be a safer place. I read just the other day about a location that has some sort of rapid response force that sounds like they would be a great addition to our elite military forces. I can't wait till they start offering classes to the general public.

All kidding aside it would be great to get her involved in a truly effective martial arts class. Try before you buy though, ask if she can participate in a class or two for free before paying, please dont sign any contracts, and make sure they actually do focus on some combatives and not just forms. No shot against forms I know you can learn everything you need from them, it can just take a lot longer for that to be effective...

Talk to her about situational awareness. Being aware of the obvious - a cliche often used is the guy in a trench coat when it is 80 degrees outside ... If she is walking to her car late at night, make sure it is not alone or to at least scan the area before leaving the door to go to the car, making sure she has her keys in her hands ready to unlock the doors.

Above all she has to be willing to fight if the need arrises. I was not willing the first time I faced a bad situation when I was younger. I got the crap beat out of me. I know there is no way a father can test this, but you can discuss it with her. Fight or flight seems to have gone wrong someplace in our society, now we also seem to have freeze. I have seen it not just in myself, but in others as well. All of the above goes out the window if she is not willing to or capable of taking some sort of action when the time comes.

I have 2 daughters and plan on them never growing up or leaving home. That will just simplify this entire issue for me. Now if I can just get this anti-aging machine to work.

 

[butch50]

I have 2 daughters and plan on them never growing up or leaving home. That will just simplify this entire issue for me. Now if I can just get this anti-aging machine to work.

It was just yesterday that she was in kindergarten, and now she is off and gone. I hunted and hunted for that button that would stop her from growing up, but it remains hidden. She will be going to college in Texas, so the 21 rule applies.

My daughter is quite an assertive person, I don't think she will hesitate to fight back. A large part of my dilemma is whether or not she will be too willing to use a gun and get herself in trouble that way. But when I weigh the balance I feel that it would be better for her to have the opportunity and the tool to defend herself if need be.

I do plan on quite a bit of training before turning her loose with it though, and the idea came up in this forum of going through a combat defensive type of course, which I think would be an excellent "finishing school" for her to graduate from before she actually gets the pistol to carry on her own. That would take place of course after we spent range time etc for her to obtain basic handling techniques and shooting competency.

After all of that and when she is armed, she will at least have the tool, the training and the skill to have the opportunity to defend herself.