Dilemma - Law vs. Self Reliance

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butch50

New member
Here is my dilemma:

I am a law abiding citizen, very law abiding. BUT, my 18 year old daughter asked for a graduation present that consists of a handgun for self defense. As she puts it, "I am an 18 year old girl, who is moving away from home and will be exposed at times to danger, don't you want me to be able to protect myself when you can't be there?" - She always did well in debate .....

If I give her a hand gun to carry, it violates the law because she can not legally obtain a CHL until she is 21. BUT, since she does work late shifts and has to walk out to her car in the parking lot.........

I have already made up my mind what to do. I am interested though in hearing what others would do, or have done.
 
No they're not moot. I am interested to see what other people would, and/or have done, in similar situations. Or think they would do. And any positive or negative results from their decisions......I can still change my mind....
 
12-34,
you've never changed your mind on anything?

Butch,
It's better to get her some pepper spray and self defense classes. For a couple reasons, A) I'm rabid about obeying gun laws, or else we're all criminals. B) Your daughter could use the gun before pepper spray, when pepper spray is all it takes, and you could be held responsible in a civil court for a bad guys death.

However, I'm not a father, and can't speak to wanting to keep your daughter safe at all costs. I can only imagine you'd want to do everything in your power.
 
MidKnight - good points. I do not want to give away my thinking too early in this thread, but you have definitely given me an idea that I did not have before. Thanks! :)
 
That's a tuff decision for you and her. A lot people are under the misconception that the police are responsible to protect you and me. It's been proven over and over in court that it's not. Their job is to enforce the law which in most cases is after the fact. I say this not to demeam the police, but to show how screwed up out courts are. Good luck on your choice. I would have to say the safety of your family comes first.
 
Not to demean the police (too much) but my opinion is that they act more as historians (they arrive after the crime and take notes that go into a file that goes into storage never to be read again), and a genearlized deterrence than as protection.
 
butch50,

18 is too young for a CCL, but it's not to young to posess a handgun for other considerations. She can have one in her home. She can have one when "traveling" (whatever that means).

There is a provision in the CCL law that says it is a defense to prosecution from using a handgun in a prohibited place, if the use of lethal force was otherwise justifiable. In other words, if she had something and used it only when she really had to, she'd be ok.

Keep her safe the best way you can.
 
Not to really really derail this thread but:

Yes, the cops show up after the fact a crime is commited. What else do you expect them to do? They can't show up before, if they don't know it'll happen, and I don't see how they could.

I'm just confused as to how you would change the police force to correct the apparent inadequacy.

20 cows, is that law in all 50 states?
 
No, it is specifically a provision of the Texas CCL law, but I believe it has a basis in pre-existing state law. (I don't think somebody thought of it for the first time for the CCL).
 
butch50, had your daughter used arguments like that on the debate team, they would have been losers. Her argument was, "I am an 18 year old girl, who is moving away from home and will be exposed at times to danger, don't you want me to be able to protect myself when you can't be there?"

Basically, she is making the argument that since you won't be around, the only way that she can be protected is with a gun. Here, both parts are in error. If your daughter feels that the only times she is protected is when you are around and when she has a gun, then she already has a defeatest perspective on self defense, apparently nurtured by you.

Her query about wanting her to be able to protect herself when you aren't there is an "appeal to emotion" where she plays to your ego as being the all protective parent, complimenting you in hopes of influencing your decision. It is a logical flaw, but a ploy that worked on you.

Really hokey was her denotation of her age, sex, and being exposed to danger. First, she is telling you that she is 18 and hence and adult who can move away from home, but then calls herself a girl, as in being a female child. Of course, you want to protect that child, don't you? However, surely you don't believe that just because she has lived at home that she hasn't been exposed to danger at times when she hasn't physically been at home when you were there? Her move from your home won't change most of the circumstances that will expose her to danger as the danger usually does not happen inside the safety of one's home. It can, but generally speaking most folks are attacked away from home. Since she works late shifts and since I assume that you don't go with her to work, then her argument about being exposed to danger and protecting herself when you are not there is moot. Dude, assuming you don't drive around everywhere with your daughter, then her moving from home has nothing to do with her need for a concealed carry gun. Why hasn't she asked you for a gun to carry while living at home? She does leave the house and sometimes stay out later, with friends, dates, or working, right? You aren't her escort to all those situations so you obviously cannot protect her at those times, so why hasn't she asked for a gun before deciding to move out?

Something else to consider is the fact that your daughter loves you so much that she is asking you to commit a crime for her. You could give her a shotgun for home defense when she moves out, but that isn't what she is after. She wants you to give her a gun, knowing full well it is going to be carried illegally when she is away from her new abode. Isn't that sweet?

FYI, since you apparently haven't already given her a gun to carry when she isn't in the house with you, then why would you think she is in more need to carry a gun in the immediate future when she isn't in the safety of her new abode away from your home?

Don't you want her to be safe, daddy? Of course you do! Maybe you should help her by getting her to take a job that does not unduly expose her to risk until she can legally carry a concealed handgun? If the risk comes from the job being late night, then she needs another job. How about you get her in some self defense classes so that she can learn more about things NOT to do so as to preclude attacks from happening in the first place.

Heck, for that matter if your daughter is so darned concerned about her own safety and since she is 18 as she noted, then how about maybe she start taking responsibility for her own actions! If she is worried about self defense, then she needs to get her lazy butt off the couch and get herself into some some self defense classes. She needs to work on finding a job that does not keep her out late at night, exposing her to the dangers of the night. Instead, she is basically saying, "Daddy, I am too lazy. I never bothered to learn self defense before deciding to leave home and becasue I didn't bother, I will be leaving home and exposing myself to danger and you know what, I still don't want to bother with actually going out of my way to learn self defense or changing jobs to a safer job. So how about you just commit a little crime and give me a handgun that you know I am going to be carrying illegally? Thanks Daddy! You are the best! I'll call you when I need more money. You know, I would be safer if I had a new car given to me."

Guns are fine tools and guns can help make intended victims be only that, intended. From what is described, it isn't like your daughter is going to be practicing with it on a regular basis or is interested in self defense training. She just wants a shortcut solution and is willing to play on your fears as a parent in order to get what she wants.
 
FrankDrebin,

At 18, the gun would not be illegal, just the carrying of it in most situations would be.
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Well then, no dilema...buy her a gun and let her decide if she wants to carry it feloniously, or misdemeanantly, as the case may be. Make certain she understands that you're not going to bail her out financially when she's trying to get that arrest expunged.
 
My understanding of the legality is that she is 18 so can possess a handgun, but just cannot go buy a new one until she is 21 (or get a ccl). A blood father can still certainly make a gift to his daughter or son within the law also. With blood I caould see no illegality there, but if it was distant in-law or friend then I could see where they might be able to press an illegal transfer or straw purchase charge if they wanted to.

I 'think' you're ok with this, but it's your decision, I ain't no lawyer or anything like that. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate, It's MY blood family and not theirs. No paperwork required...family.
 
OK, I'm good at 18-20 year olds and handguns. I'm 19 and have 3.

You can recieve a handgun from a non-FFL holder at 18. You cannot recieve any handgun from an FFL holder until you are 21. Therefore, it is legal to buy a handgun at 18 in a private party sale.

Someone over 21 may buy a handgun from an FFL holder and gift it to someone 18-20, under the condition is that it is a true gift, and the giver is not being recompensated.

Therefore, unless you have any local laws against it, it is perfectly legal for you to give your daughter the handgun.

Open carry is legal at 18 in many areas. CCW is even available at 18 in some areas. You may want to check if any of these are available in your area.

What is the penalty for unlicensed CCW in your area? If she is going to lose the right to guns over this, it may not be a good idea. If she is going to get a $100 ticket, it may well be worth it.

Also remember, if you gift her the gun, and she is caught illegally carrying, something might get back to you. I wouldn't think so, but you never know where a lawer is going to take it.

Check out http://www.packing.org
 
Double Naught Spy: Whew! So many statements that I can not respond to them all - while the majority of what you say is technically correct based upon what I stated and can be reasonably inferred - you have gone way beyond the limitations of what I said and what can be reasonably inferred from my statements - you have jumped to several conclusions that just ain't so.

Your debating remarks are correct - her appeal is emotional and not logical, however her concern is about the reality of life, and not a mere debating point. BUT, she has moved out, she has also taken employment that requires some exposure to danger, and she has moved into the adult world of being responsible for herself, which includes her safety and self defense. She asked me for a tool for self defense, and while I didn't explicity state it, she asked also for training in the use of that tool. My own personal belief is that self defense training is BS. Those kung-fu movies are not reality and are just plain old BS. In my youth I took several years of Judo and Karate lessons, and I learned that hand to hand combat is crap - use a tool, any tool. The best defense is absolutely overwheming firepower deployed immediately and without any hesitation against the bad guy. I will take on the very best martial arts expert in the world, heck I will take on the two best martial arts experts in the world with my .45, and I will win as long as they are more than 30 feet away when we start, if they are closer than that and are very good then I could have my hands full and might only get one of them.

My giving my daughter a pistol is not illegal, it is perfectly legal. If she is caught carrying it without the governments permission then she faces the fall out, not me; becuse she has reached the age of legal majority. However as a parent do I think it is worth her facing the government's wrath if she is caught with an unpermitted concealed firearm, as opposed to her being able to protect herself from harm without the assitance of law enforcement agents? Therein lies the question, doesn't it?

Yes, the cops show up after the fact a crime is commited. What else do you expect them to do? They can't show up before, if they don't know it'll happen, and I don't see how they could.
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The cops are an after the fact phenomenon - as I said they are historians and a generalized deterrence. It is and should be our responsibility to take care of ourselves. You asked how I would change the cops? Well in all realithy there is nothing much else they can do, except maybe to spend less time writing traffic tickets and more time trying to find felons who have committed crimes. But, it aint gonna happen because the muncipalities make way too much money off of traffic fines; and the so called LEOs that drive around writing tickets are not really cops, they are nothing more than glorified mobile meter maids - but hey if they didn't write those tickets then there would be more wrecks so even the glorified mobile meter maids have their place in this universe.....so do vultures, eh?

Anyone reading this can probably figure out what my decisions is...... :)
 
Not to really really derail this thread but:

Yes, the cops show up after the fact a crime is commited. What else do you expect them to do? They can't show up before, if they don't know it'll happen, and I don't see how they could.

I'm just confused as to how you would change the police force to correct the apparent inadequacy.

20 cows, is that law in all 50 states?

The courts and laws need changed so it doesn't tie the cops hands from doing their job.
 
Stopping and reading DNS's post, another thought popped into my mind.

Is she going to have the proper mindset to carry?

Some people take guns to be a magic death ray. Is she going to have the training to carry? Obviously, you can't enroll her into a concealed carry class without drawing suspicion. Will she practice with it? Do you have somewhere for her to practice drawing from her concealed holster? That may arouse suspicion at the range, especially if they know she is 18. Does she know the laws regarding use of deadly force? Carrying a concealed weapon illegally is one thing, shooting someone with it is quite another, especially if the shooting wasn't justified.

What it sort of seems to me is that you are trying to provide her the means while absolving yourself of all responsibility. IMHO, that is not the responsible thing to do.
 
Jefnvk: You are quite right in everything you said, all of what you said hits to the heart of the matter. You waded through the extrnal stuff and got straight to it didn't you?

Thus my dilemma - there is no doubt that I will provide her with the means to protect herself. Can you imagine what a father would feel if his daughter had asked for and not received the help she needed and then was raped or murdered? Unthinkable not to provide her with the tools.

As I explained to her (and in all fairness to everyone else did not explain in my post) my answer was yes, I will provide you with a handgun, but first I will provide you with a great deal of training, and you will have to earn the right to carry the gun by the way you handle the training. No one but me in this case can judge her personality, but in my opinion she is capable of making sound judgements. With proper training she will be as capable as any 21 year old in making sound judgement as to when to use the gun, if ever.

I will train and train and retrain her at home on the non-firing aspects - such as safety, handling, cleaning, loading, how to carry, etc....and I will train her in live fire on a local range. She is not a complete novice to firearms, she has hunted (and killed so she has more than an academic acquaintance with the damage a firearm does) with me and shot skeet as well as target shooting at ranges, so this isn't starting from scratch at all. Getting her to train isn't a problem, she loves to shoot....

By the way, it will be a Bulgarian Makarov 9x18mm loaded with Hornady JHP, carried in a purse, and I will have to find a good method for it to be attached insider her purse, not just floating around in there....

Maybe this is an old southern gentleman thing. (I'm not saying you are no gentleman, but we apparently don't see this the same way). When my reputation is sullied or my honor is called to question, I am damaged
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Good God 20Cows, I hope you are not challenging me to a duel? :D Since we appear to live within the same area then it is possible, but not exactly what I would prefer - I would prefer to buy you a beer and discuss it like Southern Gentleme.... :) And as far as I recall you neither hunt over a mechanical feeder nor behind the tall fences? If you spot deer from a truck on a dirt road and get out of the truck and climb through a fence to stand on your property and then shoot a deer that is some distance off, that isn't exactly fair chase, but it is a far better than huting over bait and training deer to come to your muzzle. You are hunting on your own land which may not be large enough for a classic fair chase hunt anyway.....
 
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