Digging in for war?

Have noticed lots of "gun neutral" types buying shotguns to repel packs of roving inner city youths/biker mutants/crack fed pit bulls/ etc.. but other than that..

I've noted a serious lack of premium champagne on the shelves, and a hightened awareness level of terrorism and such on the news and MUCH more animated talk of RKBA around the coffee cooler at work in light of y2k fears.

maybe all this paranoia has done us SOME good after all, like taeching a bunch of NON-boyscouts how to be prepared.

Dr.Rob

Boy Scout
Artist
Hunter
 
One of the Local gun shop people told me last week that earlier that day they had sold 8 shot guns in less than 2 hours. My mother, the little gray haired grandmother type, says that every time she has been in wallmart the last few weeks she always hears 2 or 3 calls for a manager to sporting goods for a shotgun carry out on the PA system.
 
Got to pinch hit for a buddy at my favorite local gun shop today. Customer of the day was easily a special order that we had to make for a S&W Bodyguard in .357 magnum for (are you ready?) a little grey-haired CHURCH SECRETARY!

Picked up a little .22LR plinker (Romanian bolt-action "trainer") and some sub-sonic PMC ammo to go with it. Hoping to actually get to the range sometime this week, as I got sidetracked today. Was at the gun shop to buy range ammo when they asked if I could work the counter in my buddy's absence. Helped to pay for the rifle, though, which helped with The Missus. Wish I was going to receive that Ruger Single-6 in .22LR before the first of the year. Oh, well. Gives me something to look forward to the first week of 2000.
 
Bob Locke--I think you should definately consider the purchase of a Lee Auto index
turret press for reloading.

!1! Reloading your own ammo really is
cheaper than buying it from
Cheaper Than Dirt!

2. As to my y2k ammo prepairedness, I just
spent $110.oo for 5,000 win. small pistol primers and 5000 win large pistol primers.
So ,thats 10,000 rounds for.04 each
.01 for the primer & .03 for the powder,
so all it costs me is 400.oo for 10,000
rounds. .04x10,000=$400.oo

I cast my own bullet heads so they are
free and I just dug up 250 pounds of fired
projectiles from the sand bank at my range
& I got myself about 150 pounds of #2 lead alloy smelted out from the fired bullet heads.

I got a lot of reloading to do this winter ,if I ever get around to it!

But reloading is definately the way to go!

Just remember, whenever you work with lead, to always strip off your "lead "
clothes & throw em in the wash and to jump in the shower , just as soon as possible after
you cast,smelt or reload.It helps to wash you hands every 30 minutes when reloading lead.

Never keep wearing your lead clothes
with out washing them and always into the shower right after a casting or reloading sesion.
The idea is to wash the invisable lead dust off your skin before it can be absorbed
into your body through the skin. Once absorbed, it could cause lead poisioning,
hyper active and underactive thyroid glands and animeia. (tired blood with too many white cells). Lead can be handled safely but
YOU MUST USE THE FAN AND STRIP & SHOWER IMMEDIATELY. The water washes away the lead dust so that washed clothes & bodies are safe.
The same proceedure is recommended
after asesion of shooting lead bullets and
after cleaning your lead filled bore on your
hand guns & rifles.
Copper jackets reduce exposure to lead, by keeping the lands from touching the lead bullet head but copper jackets are .05 to
.12 cents each, just for the bullet head.

Coper jacketed bullet heads are the way to go, if you can afford the extra cash.

I just bought 3,660 --win 9mm 115 gr FMJ
for 138.oo =.04 each
I am trying to get same in 125 gr.357
JHP at same price by my dist.was out
of stock.

44 mags & 45acp can cost from .09 to .12
each, even in quantity.

Powder runs 16.oo to 22.oo per pound
or 13.oo wholesale but need to by 10 pounds
at once for the 13.oo price.No mix & match allowed ,either!

When I cast, I have a hood over the casting pot with a 15 inch window fan that sucks the poisonious lead fumes right out the window so that I dony risk breathing them.

------------------
Every year,over 2 million Americans use firearms
to preserve life,limb & family.Gun Control Democrats
would prefer that they all die,instead.
ernest2, Conn. CAN opp. "Do What You Can"!
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
 
Rat, I think you hit the primer with the pin.

Bob I think you should lay in as many as you can in 30 auto rifle and about 1/4 that much in the bolt gun. As to the pistol and shotgun you wont live an extra long life if you live by either one of them, as they are short range only. So a few hundred each should do it. Now all you need to add is a 50bmg and you will be well round-ed.

I think we should all stockpile ammonium nitrate fertilizer before all the algerian terrorists buy it up, or we'll all have crop failures.haahah

I hope nobodys says my staniless TC contender in 22lr and my new over and under 16ga are not good tactical weapons for home defence. The guy at the shop who sold them to me said they would be great. He wouldnt be lying would he? Hey I got a fixed 8X scope on the 22 for fast target accusition.

"Don't want no teenage queen, just want my M-14"

[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited December 28, 1999).]
 
I guess I'll have about 2K on hand for the "militia rifle" then. Gonna cost me about $150 to get to that, but even if I don't need it in the next week or two I'll eventually burn it up at the range. I probably already have enough 9mm on hand, so I'll invest in other areas. Need to get more top-notch ammo for the bolt gun, and I need to get a good zero on it. My trip to the range got sidetracked, as I said. So much to do, and time is getting short.
 
Problems of militia facing a Modern 1st world infantry force.

1. Fire Power/Volume of fire. Modern armies are equipped with select fire carbines and light machine guns. For example, most small infantry fighting groups would be equipped with select fire carbines, plus a light machine gun and at least one grenade launcher.

2.Protective gear. Even if the militia was able to produce an equal volume of fire or a greater volume of aimed fire, it likely that it would be less effective then the opposing Army. Most modern Armies will have body armor and protective helmets.


So if the Chinese invade next week should we give up? No, but we should rethink our combat strategy. I just don't see us winning with a AR-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo.

First you should be organized in small sniper teams of two to three people. Since it unlikely that we could match them with volume of fire, we need weapons that give us a greater effective range. Since the effective range of most modern combat carbines is 300 -400 meters, we should be equipped with weapons that have a 500-600 meter range, giving us a safe stand off distance. This means your scoped deer rifle in 30-06 may be a better bet than your AR-15. Once their light machine gunner is taken out, you can safely pick off the remaining members of a small infantry force. Plus the higher power weapon is more effective against body armor.

Not that I think the Chinese or the UN is going to invade, just seems a lot of people here are worried about it. Lot of those same people are talking about their AR's. I just don't think it's would be the weapon of choice for me.

------------------
The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
Sorry, didn't mean to kill the thread.

A AR-15 is certainlly a nice Urban weapon where one has plenty of cover.



------------------
The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
Note- The following is my humble opinion and nothing but. You AK / FAL / whatever guys are probably going to do just fine... so don't think I'm slamming you.

<RANT>
Last time I checked, most of us live in the 'burbs and semi-urban areas. No offense, but 5.56 is plenty of rifle for that.

I love hearing how everyone should have a .308 accurate out to 600-1000 yards, etc etc etc. That's great and all, but think logically for a second - just how often are you going to be making those shots? Right, probably not at all. From my apartment window to the furthest building in site it's barely 300 meters. From my front door to end of the parking lot it's barely 100. I can be reasonably sure of hitting anything in that range. That's all I'm worried about, my AR will do just fine.

Let's have a reality check, folks, if the SHTF, I'm staying as out of site as possible. I'm not going to try any Carlos Hathcock fantasy shots, and I don't think anyone here is either. Our duty is to protect ourselves and our families, not to take on oppossing armies. If you are going to arm for bear, load up with a carbine that you can carry a basic load for (210-300 rounds), and be ready to move, because that weight *does* count, and you are better of being able to retreat with a quickness than being armed for a threat that most likely you'll never see. So forget about the 600+ yard fantasies, and use something that's going to be effective *and* not weigh you down unneccessarily.

The AR is widely available, takes common ammo, has easily replaceable parts, and guess what? If you can *hit* the BG, he's not going to care if it was a .308 or .223! Shot placement, remember? As long as you are armed, you can fight, and personally, I treat a .22 as just as much of a threat as a 12 guage. Dead is dead, after all.
</RANT>

Again, you .308 guys are probably going to do just fine, etc. Your weapons are most likely what you think suits you best. This is just my opinion on what people are *likely* to face...
Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com



[This message has been edited by Spark (edited December 31, 1999).]
 
Spark, I'm with you on this one. Here's hoping that push never, ever comes to shove. IMHO: spare parts to one's primary weapon(s) in a time of crisis are more crucial in any given situation than any cache of ammo one might have. Then again, I guess you could always throw the bullets at the BGs ;) So if $ permits, by all means duplicate and combine one's firearms and ammo whenever and wherever you can....

------------------
ff ...save the 2nd. No fate but what we make.
 
Fellas,
Have you ever seen where Art Eatman lives?

Let's not suppose that EVERYone on TFL lives in an apartment or housing "development".

From working with the census (in 1990), I found places not twenty miles from my home where the horizon was "a fer piece off".

To each is own, guys. Me? I live in the woods. A 12ga shotgun would be ideal - shot or slug. (And I'll back it up with both a 1911 and a Glock 9mm.)
 
I would still rather have a bean field rifle in the Urban enviroment.

There were snipers in Bosinia making 800-1200 meter shots from tall buildings.

A lot depends on the kind of civil unrest you forsee. If the local gang rolls into the hood after a Y2K power outage, the AR-15 and those cute little bullets will probably do just fine.

On the other hand when your facing a fire a fire team with select fire weapons and a SAW, your going to want to be as far away as possible and still be able to return fire.



------------------
The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
Jimmie

First any militia type unit who tried to fight a modern infantry unit on the infantry’s terms, would be a bunch of fools. The militia would loose, ask any one who fought in Southeast Asia before Tet. When it comes to volume of fire vs well aimed fire it has been proven several times that Marksmanship is the better of the two. When most soldiers use auto they tend to use spray and pray, over aim and fire control.

Second while I understand that a kevelar helmet will stop a .30 cal ball bullet (we are talking 30-06/308 147/150gr FMJ here not 7.62X39 stuff) the old steel type helmets will not in all cases. 90 percent of the Flak vests will not stop a .30 ball. Also the current body armor doesn’t cover much below the waist. Body armor may work well against a 7.62x39 or a 5.56 at 200 yards but I wouldn’t bet my life on it against a 30-06 or 308 at 500 meters

I agree about the .223 bullet not being a great choice but it would work against rouge street thugs.
 
Maybe we should have a role call and see how many people live in houses and how many in apartments...

Regardless, my opinion still remains - most engagements are going to happen in less than 300 meters, all fantasies aside. That's been proven over and over again in real wars.

Single handedly facing fireteams is another fantasy. You know what the proper response to snipers is? Calling in artillery. Saturating the area with fire. If it's a city, using an AT-4 or Mk19, or tank main gun round isn't out of the question. Welcome to the real world.

Armies are not made up of snipers, but of foot soldiers. Snipers are the exception, not the norm.

You are better off having a rifle that you can easily carry, is optimal for the situations that you are *most* likely to encounter, and for which ammo can readily be found in large quantities.

Best of luck to you humping all that around. Believe me, that extra 3-6 pounds of weapon and ammo will make a difference when you've been on the move for a while. I'm sure finding spare mags is going to be easy as well when something happens to the ones you have... at least with my AR I can be reasonably sure of finding what I need anywhere in the US. Good luck with those FALs and HK91's.

Sorry to sound short about this, but lets look at this realistically, ok? At 600 meters it's hard enough to determine if they are even a threat. You still have plenty of time for E&E. If they are going to engage you from that range, chances are they are going to be using the nice area effect weapons that cause a lot of damage, like the aforementioned grenade launchers, artillery and rockets.

Thanks for playing...

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
 
And if you cut and run, helos can hunt you just fine. I stil suspect that a frag or a .38 2" will be the main arms of any effective as opposed to noisy resistance.
 
Oleg Volk

Ever seen anyone with a Barrett shooting at a 4x4 sheet of ¼ inch steel from 500 to a 1000 meters out its what the airforce trains for use aginst Helos. While in the service evertime the the Air defence guys and helo people got the miles gear out the rotars usually got their clocks cleaned.

Spark

Regardless, my opinion still remains - most engagements are going to happen in less than 300 meters, all fantasies aside. That's been proven over and over again in real wars.

Well this is like the chicken and the egg argument especially in open country (woods or jungle and to a lesser extent cities are a little different). Before 1900 most rifles would not shoot farther than 300 meters (you know black powder, mussel loaders and all) so you wouldn’t think that’s had much of an impact, on the training of the units that fought in the early 1900s would you?? Which wouldn’t affect later battles in some way would it? It’s a proven fact in war after war armies fight the way they have been trained. Even today does the US Army put a man sized rifle target up out passed 300 meters, No. You could argue that evidence says they are not needed but the fact remains that the 5.56 ball kind of runs out of gas out there. If you can hit a target at 400 meters than 300 is a piece of cake. Most kids in the service today did not grow up on a farm where the ability to pick off a coyote at 300 yards was considered important (may also explain why modern armies are not composed of snipers). Also why do they put targets up for machine guns past 300 meters? It’s the same eyes, same arms, and hands firing these guns, the machine gunners have the same target ID problem. Heck most of the machine gun ranges I was on in the army started at 200 meters.

Also seems to me that I read somewhere once, that after the initial push into Stalingrad that most of the kills on both sides were made by snipers firing from over 400 or 500 meters away. All the house fights aside the snipers made it pretty dangerous to show oneself. I’ll see if I can find the source anyone else remember seeing this claim?

BTW how far was the fool on the tower in texas hitting moving targets from?


Single handedly facing fireteams is another fantasy. You know what the proper response to snipers is? Calling in artillery. Saturating the area with fire. If it's a city, using an AT-4 or Mk19, or tank main gun round isn't out of the question. Welcome to the real world.

Well if so how come the Germans never fully captured Stalingrad before they got cut off humm… also Bosnia, Grozney, and Afghanistan are names that keep buzzing around for some reason. Its pretty tough to find a sniper if he only shoots once or twice from cover at over 400 meters and then moves out, especially if there are more than one of them who know how to shoot and move.
 
Thanks for illustrating my points. You don't see large amounts of snipers, you see one or two. You seem to not understand the concepts we're dealing with here.

Snipers are the exception, not the norm. Snipers use precision fire, not area effect. Machineguns are area weapons, and *crew* served. They aren't expected to be as mobile, which is why they fire a heavier round... and why the ranges on them start farther. One shot - one kill isn't the goal of the machine gunner, covering an area with his rounds is.

MOUT is a highly fluid and complex scenario. Casualties for the attacker are expected to be around 75% because the defenders have all the advantages.

If its your choice to excercise your sniper fantasies, more power to you. Somehow I don't see you dragging your kids along on those missions...

Getting back to the point of this - you are best off with an all around weapon. If you want to limit yourself with something more esoteric, more power to you, I'll be happy to leave you behind while me and my family unass the AO.

But, facts remain, most engagements occur in under 300 meters, longer distance engagements are the exception and not the norm. In an urban or semi urban environment, you can expect even shorter distances. As such, you are best off with a light weight and accurate weapon that is easily supplied, maintained, and repaired. The AR fits that bill perfectly. Heck, even the Mini 14 does that well.

Loading up with a heavier caliber "Sport Utility" rifle :D on the off chance that you are going to get to be a sniper is, IMHO, stupid. If you want to be a sniper, use purpose designed rifle, hunting or otherwise. But if you have to cover a lot of ground in a hurry, and need the ability of putting out a relatively large volume of fire, you'd be better off with an AR.

I think that a little bit of common sense needs to be inserted into this. Most likely, you are not going to be facing uniformed threats. This isn't Bosnia, or Stalingrad where anything moving is a valid target. Being a sniper also requires precision and discipline. Have fun hanging out on that rooftop scanning the streets, waiting for some phantom enemy at 600+ meters who you probably aren't going to be able to recognize to show up.

This is pure fantasyland. I'm willing to bet that most everyone here has a family and home to defend, and that is their primary concern. You want to Mickey Mouse armchair commando and be a "sniper", be my guest. It's going to be a lot of cold / hot days and nights keeping watch on that roof, looking out 600+ meters away searching for that band of crackheads. Just make sure you are definate about your targets before you start loosing rounds downrange.

Get real. Wake up.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
 
Spark,

On the general topic of using the language to our advantage, rather than letting the anti's beat us over the head with it - I really like the term "sport utility rifle". Yeah, that has a nice ring to it. "I've already got a Mini-14, so this year, I think I'll get a sport utility rifle. Probably an FAL, but maybe an M-14."

Maybe we should start a thread and a FAQ on other terms of this nature, so we can all be on the same page when talking to the anti's.

JimR
 
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