Difficult shooting case in Texas on trial right now

It's hard to know what Graham's legal costs were. In the possible criminal case, which went only as far as the grand jury, there is no discoverable evidence provided to the prospective defendant and therefore little basis for which a defense attorney could draw fees. I wouldn't expect the criminal defense fees to be terribly substantial.

As far as the civil trial fees, it's even harder to know, because there are a lot of variables we simply don't know. For one, we don't really know how vigorous the case presented by the plaintiffs was. From what little was in the news clip above, the plaintiffs' case seems to have consisted of a few character witnesses and possibly one forensic expert (though we don't know if the forensic expert testified for the plaintiffs or the defense). In all honesty, it doesn't sound like the plaintiffs were represented by terribly effective or competent counsel, and this would help keep Graham's legal expenses to a minimum. If you aren't engaged in a duel of expen$ive experts and tons of discovery materials going in each direction, the legal costs might not range into the staggering range.
 
[From stija]: First you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you....And best of all, no witnesses.

Wow! Nothing like creating something permanent and discoverable that could be used by a prosecutor to establish state of mind.

Then you say: "I was afraid for my life and I shot back, I have nothing more to say"....It is that simple. No need for a lawyer unless they decide to indict you, but with a statement like that they really have nothing on you.

Not quite that simple. They will have evidence that you shot someone. Absent anything else, that's evidence that you committed a crime.

Not only that, if you choose to mount a claim of self defense, they also have your own admission that you did the deed.

It's then a matter of whether the shooting was justified under the law, and it's up to you to produce evidence of justifiability, and up to you and your defense counsel to convincingly present that evidence to the charging authority and should it come to that, to a grand jury if your state has them, and if necessary, to a trial court jury.

Of course, the evidence favorable to your defense could be pretty strong--perhaps strong enough to result in no charges being filed at all--or rather weak.

Having "no witnesses" could work against you. Witnesses who corroborate your claim of justifiable self-defense could prove very important to you indeed, depending on what other evidence exists.

The prosecution will be assembling evidence also. Best not to give them any help in the form of statements they could user to try to show that you were predisposed to killing.

And the deceased? He can still bear witness through forensic evidence. May help you, or it may just hurt.
 
The following is a hypothetical scenario.

Wow! Nothing like creating something permanent and discoverable that could be used by a prosecutor to establish state of mind.
As opposed to wounding the guy and that being not only permanent and discoverable evidence, but then his word against yours. Perhaps, according to intruder, he decided to retreat and wait for cops but you, the bad guy with the gun in your hand, decided to shoot him anyway.

And what state of mind do you speak of? Being scared for his life because of a possibly armed robber inside his house?

Also please understand that I am not advocating the killing of any intruder. It is up to the individual to choose wether to pull that trigger or not, however in the above post I was describing what to say in a hypothetical scenario where the homeowner decided to shoot and the intruder ends up getting shot.

They will have evidence that you shot someone. Absent anything else, that's evidence that you committed a crime.
Pardon me? Evidence that someone committed a crime?? There is only evidence, according to the shooters testimony, that there was an intruder that caused the shooter to be afraid for his life which made him shoot in self defense. What crime are you talking about? Perhaps the attemted robbery/assualt by the intruder?

Not only that, if you choose to mount a claim of self defense, they also have your own admission that you did the deed.
Exactly! How is this detrimental to the shooter?
According to the testimony of the only witness, and corroborated by the scene at the shooting, there was an intruder who made the shooter fear for his life and shoot in self defense.
Are you suggesting the shooter has a better option than self defense? I am all ears.

It's then a matter of whether the shooting was justified under the law, and it's up to you to produce evidence of justifiability, and up to you and your defense counsel to convincingly present that evidence to the charging authority....
The shooter did claim justification by claiming self defense. The ball is in their court to prove the opposite. If it comes to to trial it is up to prosecutors to prove your intent to kill and not the claimed self defense. Hard to do without a witness unless you shot the guy in the back, then walked up behind him while he was on the ground and shot him execution style in the head.

The prosecution will be assembling evidence also. Best not to give them any help in the form of statements they could user to try to show that you were predisposed to killing.
I am not sure I follow. How does the shooter's statement that he feared for his life and shot back become evidence that the shooter was predisposed to kill?

It is clear that people do not understand their rights. The most important of all is the right to not incriminate yourself. There is no reason to get a lawyer and cooperate with police. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law....". The best policy is not to say more than you have to.
 
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what state of mind do you speak of?

The shooter's state of mind--mens rea. If the defendent has ever done, said, or writtten something to indicate that he might have been predisposed to killing, thought killing would be to his advantage, thought killing to be a good idea, it will not work to his advantage in a defense of justifiability. Unless the facts of the case are clearly supportive of the shooter's claim (empty cases all over from the decedent's weapon, for example), the prosecutor will be looking for anything that might indicate a criminal state of mind on the part of the shooter.

How does the shooter's statement that he feared for his life and shot back become evidence that the shooter was predisposed to kill?

It does not, not at all. However, statements such as "first you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you....And best of all, no witnesses" could sure sound pretty bad to the charging authority, grand jury if there is one, and/or trial court jury. That could be the determining factor for the defendant.


What crime are you talking about? Perhaps the attempted robbery/assualt by the intruder?

No, the crime of murder, probably manslaughter, committed by the shooter. The shooter has shot someone. Ordinarily that would be a crime. It is only if he can successfully mount an affirmative defense showing that the shooting was legally justified, that he will not be considered guilty of a crime.

How is this [(your admission that you did the deed)] detrimental to the shooter?

It denies you the defense of trying to argue that you did not do it, or that it was an accident, and puts all of the stakes on a defense of justifiability.

The shooter did claim justification by claiming self defense. The ball is in their court to prove the opposite. If it comes to to trial it is up to prosecutors to prove your intent to kill and not the claimed self defense.

Close, but no cigar.

Think for a moment. If a shooter's claim were sufficient, how many homicides would ever be successfully prosecuted? Do you think "I feared for my life" will suffice?

Here's something written by attorney for attorneys who may have to take on a self defense case (there aren't that many who would know where to start):

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

Study it all.

Here are some excerpts.

Yes, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. But the client is not home free:

Many assumptions about trial tactics are inverted in a self-defense case. If the defendant presents some evidence on each of the elements of self-defense, then he or she is entitled to a jury instruction on the issue, which places the burden of proof squarely on the prosecutor to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fails to disprove self-defense, the client is acquitted. In practice, however, the defense attorney has a great deal of work to do in order to convince the jurors that the client’s conduct fell within the common law of self-defense or within applicable state statutes.

I spoke of the need for evidence for the defense:

At a minimum, the defense must include some evidence, generally viewed in the light most favorable to the defense, on each of these factors in order to receive an appropriate jury instruction:

The client had reasonable grounds to believe he or she was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Heated words, vague threats, and the possibility of future harm are not enough. The harm must be serious and imminent.

The client actually believed that he or she, or a third person, was in such imminent danger. Establishing this subjective belief often requires the client to testify.

The danger was such that the client could only save himself or herself by the use of deadly force. Some states do not require the defendant to retreat, even if he or she can do so safely.

The client had to use no more force than was necessary in all the circumstances of the case.

Given that, one more time, do you really think that simply saying "I feared for my life" and letting it go at that will suffice?

I also mentioned evidence that the prosecution will likely bring to bear:

Once the attorney has settled on a self-defense strategy, he or she will need to think about what facts should be established and challenged in order to successfully defend the case. There will be some facts which the prosecution and police investigators believe are inconsistent with self-defense. Counsel will have to wrestle with these facts and be able to explain to the jury why they do not disqualify the client from self-defense.

There will be the forensic evidence, indicating, for example the distance at which the shots were taken, and perhaps witness testimony that does not seem to support the defendant's story. Hopefully, there will be no internet postings to the effect that a shooter would be better off with the decedent out of the way and unable to testify.
 
To respond to a few of the comments in this thread...

Just as an educated guess, I suspect Terry Graham's total legal fees and costs were in the upper half of the five figure bracket, counting both representation up to the grand jury by Buck File, and the splendid defense he got from Tracy Crawford in the civil case.

The defense went to the expense of deposing critical witnesses including the plaintiff's expert, and this wise investment gave them very powerful ammunition that Crawford used to devastating effect at trial. By contrast, plaintiff's counsel did not bother to depose the defense experts.

Terry Graham having been the one who called in his own shooting, and told his side of it early, helped enormously to lead the investigators to the truth of the matter. His candid testimony in front of the grand jury helped them to realize that he should be no-billed. When you did the right thing, the truth will set you free. In the end, that was the story here.

I'm convinced that the shot Terry fired almost certainly saved his life, and the lives of the two eyewitnesses. The decisions of the grand jury on the criminal side in May '07, and of the civil jury last night, indicate that they agreed with this assessment after having seen and understood the facts in evidence.
 
Oldmarksman,

It does not, not at all. However, statements such as "first you have to make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you....And best of all, no witnesses" could sure sound pretty bad to the charging authority, grand jury if there is one, and/or trial court jury. That could be the determining factor for the defendant.
That was a hypothetical situation. I am not advocating you shoot at all, that is your choice. You may choose to sit down and have coffee with the intruder, totally up to you.

Think for a moment. If a shooter's claim were sufficient, how many homicides would ever be successfully prosecuted? Do you think "I feared for my life" will suffice?
Are you serious? You go from a home invasion and robbery to how many homicides would ever be prosecuted. Far reach, c'mon.

In practice, however, the defense attorney has a great deal of work to do in order to convince the jurors that the client’s conduct fell within the common law of self-defense or within applicable state statutes.
Very true. But I also hope you do understand that shooting an intruder/robber in your own house is not far from falling withing applicable state statutues, at least in my state. All is needed is a scared ****less witness who claims self defense.

There will be the forensic evidence, indicating, for example the distance at which the shots were taken, and perhaps witness testimony that does not seem to support the defendant's story. Hopefully, there will be no internet postings to the effect that a shooter would be better off with the decedent out of the way and unable to testify.
Now you're just being funny with a bit of paranoid. Don't you think that forensics and detectives have more important real crimes to investigate instead of a possible home invasion gone wrong? You have to be kidding, I hope.

There is no need for evidence unless it goes to trial.

The point I was trying to make is that if there is an intruder in my home, taking my stuff and possibly (I dont know whether he is) armed, you better believe that I am going to defend myself while being scared ****less.

And that is EXACTLY what I am going to tell the cops. Not an inch more. Where I live they won't be bringing David Caruso and the CSI trying their best to bring me, the criminal (in your mind), to justice. Nor will they be looking at my posts for premeditation of a random robbery. My state law allows use of deadly force in a situtation where I was afraid for my life, as I surely would have been in this HYPOTHETICAL situation.

Again, in this hypothetical situtation, the shooter didn't pick up a drunk vagabond and drove him to his house for the sole purpose of shooting him. This was a real, not staged, random (hyothetitcal) home invasion. Like the one that started this thread.
 
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Yes I read today about the not guilty verdict. Glad Graham is free. Terrible what it cost him to keep his freedom but he is still free.

Did any of you guys read about the counties 'CSI' investigation of the shooting and their 'tire track' evidence?

Get the latest issue of Popular Mechanics and see what they have to say about the science of 'CSI'.

And notice guys, one may have a fancy riot shotgun, all stolked out with gear, but Graham used a single shot, aimed strait, and stopped the attacker. I bet the single shot didn't cost $80 bucks.
 
That was a hypothetical situation. I am not advocating you shoot at all, that is your choice. You may choose to sit down and have coffee with the intruder, totally up to you.
The fact that it is hypothetical doesn't change the fact that your statement is antithetical to the basic concept of legal self-defense.

Legal self-defense is completely unconcerned with the prognosis of the attacker, it is exclusively about preventing the injury or death of the defended. If the defender is trying to "make sure that the bad guy cannot testify against him" then his focus is not in accord with the law. The death of the attacker may be a legal CONSEQUENCE of the use of deadly force in self defense but it can not be the GOAL.

So, NO, you do NOT set a goal of "making sure that the bad guy cannot testify against you". That is not a legal justification for the use of deadly force. You will never find any law that justifies the use of deadly force to prevent the testimony of the attacker.

In plain and simple terms, if you shoot someone to "make sure ...(he)... cannot testify against you" then you have committed murder or attempted murder depending on the outcome.
 
I agree 100% with that. I never stated that killing someone in order to prevent his testimony is legal or justified.

Those are your presumptions.
 
Mas, actually I have since learned another thread on here that some insurance carriers WILL cover you for CIVIL costs associated with legal shootings. However, generally that is contained in the Umbrella policy. My carrier is USAA and they WOULD cover me (I asked) thru the umbrella for only the civil suit. They also cover slander and liable.
I think you misunderstood Mr. Ayoob's response. He is referring to two different types of torts (civil wrongs) - one is of negligence or omission (ie, an accidental shooting), which *some* insurance carriers will cover, and the other is of a willful or intentional tort, which is what the plaintiffs in this case claimed.

In the latter, I'm not aware of any insurance carriers who will cover the insured against a willful tort.

This is why you very frequently see civil actions where the plaintiffs make very unusual - sometimes extremely so - arguments alleging the defendent negligently or accidentally discharged the firearm. That is because they seek to recover any potential damages from the insurance carrier, not the defendent, who may otherwise have nothing to recover against.
 
I never stated that killing someone in order to prevent his testimony is legal or justified.
To be clear, I haven't claimed that you said it was legal or justified. I merely pointed out that what you said should be done was not legal or justified.

Getting right to the heart of the matter--advocating illegal activity is unacceptable on TFL and trying to dodge the issue by making it "hypothetical" doesn't change anything.
 
But I also hope you do understand that shooting an intruder/robber in your own house is not far from falling withing applicable state statutues, at least in my state.

Well, yeah, but the OP concerned a shooting that occurred after the intruder had left the house.

All is needed is a scared ****less witness who claims self defense.

Yes, in many states, the fact of an unlawful break in, forcible in some cases, and in some jurisdictions even the fact of an attempt at breaking in, provide a legal presumption (rebuttable, mind you) that the person occupying the structure had reason to believe that he or she was in such imminent danger that deadly force is justified.

However, as soon as the invader leaves the structure, that presumption disappears.

There is no need for evidence unless it goes to trial.

Come again? It is evidence that will determine whether it goes to trial.

Now you're just being funny with a bit of paranoid. Don't you think that forensics and detectives have more important real crimes to investigate instead of a possible home invasion gone wrong? You have to be kidding, I hope.

No, I'm not kidding at all, and it is clear to me that you have not absorbed any of the discussion contained in the NACDL document I provided.

They have to determine whether it was in fact a "real" crime!

Now, in the case of a shooting of someone who has forcibly and unlawfully entered the occupied domicile of another, the investigation should be rather straight forward--unless, of course, the perp had already taken off.

You are, of course, aware that in the criminal case cited by the OP, the shooter acted under Texas Code 9.42, which has to do with the protection or recovery of tangible, movable property, and did not mount a self-defense claim. No where else in the country would that work.

Go back and read the document, and here's something else worth studying:

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm
 
This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so.

At the time of his death, Josh Chambers had two loaded, stolen pistols in his possession in the front seat of his vehicle. He had been seen by two of the witnesses to make a furtive reach toward the bag containing those pistols as he moved from the house to his vehicle. He was now accelerating his vehicle toward Mr. Graham. All three witnesses stated that at the last moment, Graham stepped to the side to escape being hit and almost simultaneously fired the single shot, which passed through the open driver's window and killed Chambers. Distance was four feet, from muzzle to head. Evidence at the scene confirms this unanimous account.

It was a shooting in defense of life.
 
csmsss said:
I think you misunderstood Mr. Ayoob's response.

No, I understood it perfectly. BTW I sold P&C insurance of for three years and I know what intentional acts are.

csmsss said:
In the latter, I'm not aware of any insurance carriers who will cover the insured against a willful tort.

As I stated in my earlier post USAA does in fact do such through an Umbrella Policy. In another thread here:http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3583870&postcount=6 a poster tells us that State Farm will do such as well. During that thread I called USAA and they will cover non-criminal defense of wrongful death cases if the shooting is deemed non-criminal. In fact my policy specifically covers slander and liable as well which are both intentional acts.
 
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This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so. .... It was a shooting in defense of life.

So I presumed, Mas, from your prior note.

My thought, and you can correct this, was that the so called "Castle Doctrine" did not apply because the decedent had already left the house. Ordinarily, in most places that means the property owner or tenant cannot invoke the castle doctrine in claiming self defense. Where I live in Missouri, I have no business going out after an intruder who has departed, or so I understand.

However, in Texas, one may attempt to use force, even deadly force, to recover property. If, in the course of that lawful pursuit, the perp attacks the homeowner or tenant, it becomes a defense of life situation...or so I assumed from the news articles and from your post.

Comments?
 
Graham stepped to the side to escape being hit and almost simultaneously fired the single shot, which passed through the open driver's window and killed Chambers. Distance was four feet, from muzzle to head.

I wonder at what point this would no longer be "defensive". If the defender is out of the way of the vehicle and the vehicle continues without endangering the person then it would very soon no longer be a defensive shooting.

Making no claim as to this particular case one way or the other, just saying that it seems like mere fractions of a second from being no longer defensive.
 
Old Marksman, FWIW my interpretation of Texas law on this is the same as yours.

Castle Doctrine generally extends to house and curtilege, i.e., adjacent outbuildings. The decedent was inside when the homeowner came home from church, saw the unfamiliar car, and called his foreman who lived nearby. The two were approaching the home when the decedent emerged with the bag and ignored orders to stop. He then jumped in the car and drove straight at the homeowner, who jumped to the side and fired.

At no time did the homeowner pursue.

Texas' rescinding of the retreat requirement was passed into law a few months after this shooting, and therefore did not apply. However, safe retreat had not been possible under the circumstances anyway.
 
This was not a strict "shoot to protect property" incident, despite the plaintiff's unsuccessful attempts to make it appear so.


Mas Ayoob, thanks for the rest of the story. I'm surprised that the judge let this civil case go to trial.
 
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