diffficulty seating second charge

C

Curtis Simmons

Inactive
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and have found some useful information and interesting opinions here. I have seen a few posts about a foul ring forming in the breach, .5" approx., just forward of the fire hole. This makes it difficult, no impossible, for me to seat my second charge to the mark on my ramrod. I shot 100 grns of Pyrodex RS behind a Hornady 300 grn SST bullet and sabot. A friend loaded and shot the rifle 3 times using 2- 777 50 grn pellets and the 250 grn SST. I know this is a good load but have never shot any groups with it. I, being bull headed, (my Grandfather's called me Bull) like the ballistics of the 300 grn over the 250 grn and use only loose powder. This ring is not a problem on the range as I swab between shots but it slows up loading after a shot in the field because I always reload, even if I see the deer go down. I have talked to a few guys who shot front loaders and a few gunsmiths and they swear the problem is the 209 primer is to powerful. It actually pushes the charge forward before ignition. So my questions are: has anyone solved this problem if they had it and if there is such a thing as a less powerful 209 primer? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. This is a T/C Omega Stainless with laminated wood stock. Before anyone wants to rear the head of the new verse old, I cherish the T/C Renegade side lock that was my Grandfather's, he gave it to me the year he passed away. I make a point of hunting with it a part of each season.
 
You could try the Winchester triple seven 209 primers. They are supposed to work with loose powder or pellets. They are supposed to have less power than regular 209 shotshell primers.
Do they work? From what I've seen, yes, they reduce the ring of fouling. But do not eliminate it completely.
 
I used to use 777 powder and Remington STS Premier primers. Experienced the same ring. Ring would not be as bad if I stayed south of about 100grns. Magnum loads were terrible for the rings

Went to CleanShot powder and same primers, ring stopped.

Today I use American Pioneer with Remington Kleanshot 209 primers and have no trouble.

My assessment was the 777 powder.

YMMV.
 
Use the real thing. GOEX FFF Problem solved.

Real black powder has been working for like a thousand years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. :)

Boomer
 
Just make the switch to "Blackhorn 209" powder!!!!!!!!!!!!.

All of your "second shot" loading problems will go away. As a bonus, you will never again have to swab at the range for accuracy and loading will be easy on the second shot all the way to the 40th shot.:D

Accuracy with my CVA Optima pistol is GREAT... From field positions it will shoot 3" groups at 100 yards with Harvester Sabots and about any bullet.

Save your Pyrodex and 777 for your sidelocks and pistols....but I promise that if you try BH209 in your inline...you will never again shoot anything else in the inlines.;);)

I shoot real Black in everything else. But BH 209 is so good for inlines!!!!!!!

I am a major competetor in the BPCR game... I dumped my American Pioneer in a pile and lit it on fire. Wow, was that stuff awful. I hate Pyrodex, even if it is available everywhere...it will destroy your guns so fast from corrosion that is is not even funny :mad::(

There is no debate for those that have tried it....Real Black Powder for everything else...and BlackHorn 209 for the inlines!! everything else is a waste of time and money. I hope this helps...don't mean to sound harsh...but I have spent $1000 on the BlackPowder games...this is the answer:D
 
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I wish I lived closer to Montana as I sure would like to see that pistol shooting 3" groups all day @ 100 yds. I'd even like to see the smokeless pistol that would shoot those groups all day and at that distance. And with about any kind of bullet even....amazing!
 
Thanks

Thank you all for your input, I'm happy to be among a group who are dedicated enough to promoting our love of shooting and marksman heritage to set aside bias and share your knowledge. Any one ever shot the full bore version of the Hornady SST, they market it as the FPB? The base is similar to their Great Plains bullets and is made of the jacket. Seems like this would aid in getting through that foul ring when seating the charge. Any thoughts?
 
The Harvester Sabots are where I get my accuracy. I shot some full caliber bullets with fairly good results. but the recoil from 100gr of BH209 behind a full 450gr bullet was incredible!!...NOT FUN at all....so using the Foresters I am able to shoot 45colt or 44mag bullets with very managable recoil and accuracy was amazing...I couldn't belive the first time I shot my Optima at 90yards.

I tried the Power-Belts...the accuracy was terrible compared to the Forester Sabots. I have not ever tried the Hornady's that you mentioned.

CVA calls it a pistol..but it is not a typical sixgun...it is just a short rifle. You guys that doubt,,,have never fired this kind of weapon or you would not be so quick to drag my experience through the mud.:confused::rolleyes:

Seems if you search you will find everyone that shoots there Optima to 100yards yields results similar to mine. ..here is just one of many http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/06/01/cva-optima-muzzle-loading-hand-cannon-pistol/:D
 
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The base is similar to their Great Plains bullets and is made of the jacket. Seems like this would aid in getting through that foul ring when seating the charge. Any thoughts?
Curtis Simmons is offline Report Post
Click to expand...

Again, IMHO, get away from 777 powder and you will most likely not have to worry about the crud ring.

Far as a full size bullet getting through the crud ring, I doubt you will find them easier but rather harder since the plastic sabot cup on a sabot round is much softer and although still hard to push through the crud ring, would be easier then forcing a full size copper/lead bullet past the ring.

Eliminating the crud ring is your best option and that can most likely be done by switching from 777 to APP...and yes, Blackhorn 209. I have shot Blackhorn as well and like it out of my inlines. Groups didn't tighten up at all over using the APP out of two different rifles. Although the clean up was a smidge better, it did not justify the price difference between the two and to me, did not prove to be the 'holy grail' of bp substitutes.

If I catch it on sale, I will pick some up.

Far as the PowerBelts goes, some inlines will shoot em'...some won't.

You just have to try them and see whether your rifle likes them or not.

That's part of the fun of bp shooting. Finding the load your rifle like's. You just have to spend the range time to do it. And, that may mean getting away from the pellets and going to loose powder if you really want to fine tune things and get the most accuracy out of your rifle instead of MOD(min. of deer) accuracy.
 
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Just read over on another Fourm this guy gets 1 1/2 groups at any range with
his Black Powder Pistol including 100 yds. Sure glad I have retired from competive shooting. I can't touch that. Let's face it, most get one hole groups
at 1000yds nowadays and under 3 inch at 500 with a pistol. Sure glad I retired.
 
^^^:D:D:D

Yea, would be hard to compete with some of the fella's today. They are shooting/competing better today with pistols then I ever could with a rifle.... Or at least as good.

Think it's the new fangled equipment kwhi :confused:

Maybe we were just P-poor shots. :o
 
I know what you mean Shortwave, no substitute for range time. A little confused about your suggestion of switching from Pellets to loose as loose powder is all I use in my sidelock and inlines. Never mentioned PowerBelts as I will not use them. The first deer I saw killed with this bullet it was under the hind on the opposite side of entry and other than the skirt or what ever you call it missing you couldn't tell the bullet had been fired. Yes it killed the deer but I like a bullet that expands. Don't know if you have looked at the base of the Hornady FPB but as I said its similar to a conical as it has a hollow base. Well the lip of that hollow base is made from the cooper jacket. It's not sharp mind you but I would bet it is harder than the skirt on a PowerBelt and seems it have a chance of "cutting" through that darn ring. I have bought some of these and plan on a range session soon. I will also be trying Pyrodex P, good friend suggested that. Will try and post a summary of my efforts soon.
 
A friend loaded and shot the rifle 3 times using 2- 777 50 grn pellets and the 250 grn SST
Click to expand...

...guess I forgot to read "A friend" in the above sentence. :o

Have not tried the Hornady FPB's. Again, I will miss my guess if you don't find
them harder to load if a crud ring is present.

Good luck with them and yes, come back and give us a loading/range report.
 
Hornady FPB's

I was given a package to try. I loaded a T/C Triumph with one. It loaded absurdly difficult. I'd have been better off loading the bullet with a hammer.

I wanted to try them in a few different rifles but was afraid to after the first experience.

FWIW

Birch
 
If you really want to avoid crud ring (and I seriously do avoid it), pull the breech plug and wet swab between EVERY shot at the range. Doing that ensures that the cold shot on a deer will be just the same as when you sighted in. I use loose 777 and a 777 primer pushing that same bullet you use.
 
Thanks Doyle, when I'm on the range I swab between shots ( I don't remove the breech plug), and the ring is not a problem. I'm trying to be able to load a second charge in a hunting situation without swabbing. I have a system worked out for reloading in the field but it is more time consuming which is critical if I need a follow up shot. I am going to try the Pyrodex P loose and the triple 7 primer. Will post my results as soon as I can get to the range. The more I read on different sites and threads the problem seems to be the primer being to powerful but they all point to the triple 7 being the best.
 
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