It sure looks like Wis. is going to get CC soon, so, it's time to go shopping for a pocket gun. I've read lots of threads about mouse gun opinions. Seen several pics of shots into gel. And a few charts with lots of numbers. But that doesn't tell me what I'd like to know. That's bone penetration. What happens when a .32acp, .380, or a 9mm slug from a pocket pistol hits a 2x4 or a 1/2" plywood board. I figure if it can pass through plywood it can penetrate the rib cage or skull. does anyone know of a link where I can see the pics or video I'm looking for?
different test for mouse gun
- Thread starter littlmak
- Start date
From my experience, 1/2" plywood won't stop much of anything in the way of bullets. Maybe a .25 auto, or a pellet pistol. A .22 pistol shoots right through it.
A 2x4 may or may not be another story. A 9mm would very likely penetrate it, while a .380 may or may not, and a .32 ACP probably wouldn't. A lot depends on the wetness of the wood, what kind of wood the 2x4 is made of, and the ammo used.
But in all seriousness, testing on such things really won't tell you much more than you can read online, and might prove less. The angle of the head where hit can be a huge factor on whether or not a bullet will penetrate.
Of more importance is your ability, as the shooter, to hit your target with the mouse gun. Small guns are almost invariably harder to shoot than their larger companions, and as caliber and power go up, so does recoil. As recoil goes up, many shooters' accuracy goes down; especially with small pistols. Small mistakes in aiming are far more noticeable on target with a short barrel than they are with a longer barrel, too.
If you have a range available that rents firarms, it's likely money well spent to go try a few before you buy. If not, try to find someone near you who will let you try their's. You might even find a kind person at a range who will let you shoot their firearm a few times to see if you like what they're using.
With a small pocket pistol, you shouldn't be looking as much for bone smashing power as you should for something you can shoot well.
A 2x4 may or may not be another story. A 9mm would very likely penetrate it, while a .380 may or may not, and a .32 ACP probably wouldn't. A lot depends on the wetness of the wood, what kind of wood the 2x4 is made of, and the ammo used.
But in all seriousness, testing on such things really won't tell you much more than you can read online, and might prove less. The angle of the head where hit can be a huge factor on whether or not a bullet will penetrate.
Of more importance is your ability, as the shooter, to hit your target with the mouse gun. Small guns are almost invariably harder to shoot than their larger companions, and as caliber and power go up, so does recoil. As recoil goes up, many shooters' accuracy goes down; especially with small pistols. Small mistakes in aiming are far more noticeable on target with a short barrel than they are with a longer barrel, too.
If you have a range available that rents firarms, it's likely money well spent to go try a few before you buy. If not, try to find someone near you who will let you try their's. You might even find a kind person at a range who will let you shoot their firearm a few times to see if you like what they're using.
With a small pocket pistol, you shouldn't be looking as much for bone smashing power as you should for something you can shoot well.
Ah, if it was just that easy. Plywood and 2X4's tell you how your choice of round will do - on plywood and 2X4's, not on humans.
In fact, the human skull is designed to protect it's contents from impacts, and is very hard to penetrate. And you do not aim at bones - you aim at the center of (available) mass. By that, I mean that if all you can see is part of a torso, aim at the center of that which you can see.
If you think you can hit bones during a dynamic encounter, you need a lot more exposure to dynamic training.
In fact, the human skull is designed to protect it's contents from impacts, and is very hard to penetrate. And you do not aim at bones - you aim at the center of (available) mass. By that, I mean that if all you can see is part of a torso, aim at the center of that which you can see.
If you think you can hit bones during a dynamic encounter, you need a lot more exposure to dynamic training.
I've read the posts on ricochets of head shots and I probably shouldn't have mentioned the head as a target just for that reason. Center mass to me means rib cage/ breast plate over heart/lungs. So Im looking for a pocket gun calibre that will penetrate and have enough energy left to cause damage. Now spreadsheets with numbers don't mean much to me. But a hole in both sides of a good chunk of wood gives me a reference I can relate to.
Motownstan
New member
I have Kel-Tec P-32, Beretta Tomcat and S&W 442.
I have had and sold a Kel-Tec PF-9 a really good gun, just too square for the pocket.
I also sold a Seecamp, which is basically a nice piece of jewelry.
The 442 is by far my favorite, adequate power in 38+P and easy to pocket.
I have had and sold a Kel-Tec PF-9 a really good gun, just too square for the pocket.
I also sold a Seecamp, which is basically a nice piece of jewelry.
The 442 is by far my favorite, adequate power in 38+P and easy to pocket.
Ahoy littlmak ---
Since small pistols have always been a fav I’ve tested a lot of 32 ACP over the years…thru wood, metal, pork ribs, cloth, telephone books, etc.
Before I carry 32 ACP ammo brand it must be capable of passing thru a double 2x4.
In general good 32 ACP ammo will penetrate a double 2x4, the .380 barely and 9x18 Mak just behind that. These results surprised me, as I thought penetration-wise it would be the reverse. However, the .380 and 9x18 Mak do create larger holes.
BTW the 9mm para will penetrate five 2x4s…it’s a very good penetrator, and 25 ACP good will do one 2x4.
All tests done with ball ammo (fmj). Handloads do better. A problem is that most manufacturers load 32 ACP light, you need 32 ACP ammo that is rated at about 190 ft lbs m.e. for good penetration.
What does this all mean?.
For quick stops with a mousegun you need excellent accuracy to critical areas and because mouseguns recoil less (i.e. 32 ACP PPK) this is doable for many shooters.
Since small pistols have always been a fav I’ve tested a lot of 32 ACP over the years…thru wood, metal, pork ribs, cloth, telephone books, etc.
Before I carry 32 ACP ammo brand it must be capable of passing thru a double 2x4.
In general good 32 ACP ammo will penetrate a double 2x4, the .380 barely and 9x18 Mak just behind that. These results surprised me, as I thought penetration-wise it would be the reverse. However, the .380 and 9x18 Mak do create larger holes.
BTW the 9mm para will penetrate five 2x4s…it’s a very good penetrator, and 25 ACP good will do one 2x4.
All tests done with ball ammo (fmj). Handloads do better. A problem is that most manufacturers load 32 ACP light, you need 32 ACP ammo that is rated at about 190 ft lbs m.e. for good penetration.
What does this all mean?.
For quick stops with a mousegun you need excellent accuracy to critical areas and because mouseguns recoil less (i.e. 32 ACP PPK) this is doable for many shooters.
This is pretty much the info I'm looking for. I've owned .25, .32, .40, & 9mm but never a .380. And I've never tried to shoot through anything thicker than a pizza box. Am curious about performance with short barrels. currently own a .45acp & .357 sure don't want those cals. in a pocket gun. 9mm is the limit.
in caliber like 32acp and 380acp, there aren't any jhp's that expand with any consistency.
except maybe critical defense 380acp, but that only penetrates about 9 inches when it does expand.
stick to fmj for those calibers. the heaviest bullet weights you can find.
penetration is more important than a little bit of unreliable expansion.
except maybe critical defense 380acp, but that only penetrates about 9 inches when it does expand.
stick to fmj for those calibers. the heaviest bullet weights you can find.
penetration is more important than a little bit of unreliable expansion.
This will show different mediums - but not plywood:
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
But anyway, shooting into plywood does not tell you at all what a bullet is going to do when it hits bone.
Shooting a baseball bat might show you some things but even with a baseball bat - if you hit it dead center, the bullet is likely to penetrate the wood and possibly pass through the wood and possibly break the bat... If the bullet didn't hit directly center the bullet would likely deflect.
Neither wood nor plywood has the tensile strength of bone... Pinewood only has a tensile strength of 40 MPa, human bone has a tensile strenth of between 95 and 140 MPa. Plywood generally has a tensile strength of 29-32 MPa.
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
But anyway, shooting into plywood does not tell you at all what a bullet is going to do when it hits bone.
Shooting a baseball bat might show you some things but even with a baseball bat - if you hit it dead center, the bullet is likely to penetrate the wood and possibly pass through the wood and possibly break the bat... If the bullet didn't hit directly center the bullet would likely deflect.
Neither wood nor plywood has the tensile strength of bone... Pinewood only has a tensile strength of 40 MPa, human bone has a tensile strenth of between 95 and 140 MPa. Plywood generally has a tensile strength of 29-32 MPa.
ahh, straight on it may hit your heart, but chances are you're not going to shoot an attacker at a perfectly straight angle.
this is why the FBI chooses 12 inches as the minimum at dr. roberts and others recommendations. bullets often travel to the vitals at an angle, or through an assailant's arm.
dr roberts and fackler's years of experience shows that bullets rarely strike an attacker's heart straight on.
read this and check out the wound angle pics. it's not as easy as it seems to actually hit the heart: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
“Am curious about performance with short barrels.” [littlmak]
In general, a shorter barrel means less penetration. For example, my Sig P238 (2.7” barrel) puts a 380 slug thru one and one-half 2x4s, whereas that same slug shot from a PPK (3.3” barrel) will travel almost all the way thru two 2x4s, it didn’t exit but you could see the copper nose of the bullet just poke thru the second 2x4. But both are accurate, even from 50 yards out, I do not think I could shoot that well with any DAO pocket pistol.
With the 2.7” Sig P238 I don’t have much confidence, with i.e. a Sig P232 I would expect better penetration because of the longer barrel. Today I carried a PPK BUG on my ankle, don’t have a Sig P232, then again it is a larger handgun and might not do well on the ankle.
9mm para beats .380 handily in any 2x4 test…which means I will probably go the Kimber Solo route since it is small enough for comfortable ankle carry. (I’ve also shot the Kel Tec PF-9 and the Rorhbaugh R9, but hated the long elastic-like trigger pulls.)
Well that’s probably more than you wanted to know, but that’s my 2x4s worth.
In general, a shorter barrel means less penetration. For example, my Sig P238 (2.7” barrel) puts a 380 slug thru one and one-half 2x4s, whereas that same slug shot from a PPK (3.3” barrel) will travel almost all the way thru two 2x4s, it didn’t exit but you could see the copper nose of the bullet just poke thru the second 2x4. But both are accurate, even from 50 yards out, I do not think I could shoot that well with any DAO pocket pistol.
With the 2.7” Sig P238 I don’t have much confidence, with i.e. a Sig P232 I would expect better penetration because of the longer barrel. Today I carried a PPK BUG on my ankle, don’t have a Sig P232, then again it is a larger handgun and might not do well on the ankle.
9mm para beats .380 handily in any 2x4 test…which means I will probably go the Kimber Solo route since it is small enough for comfortable ankle carry. (I’ve also shot the Kel Tec PF-9 and the Rorhbaugh R9, but hated the long elastic-like trigger pulls.)
Well that’s probably more than you wanted to know, but that’s my 2x4s worth.
good point about barrel length
I think it's rare to turn up test results for <3" barrels.
I saw some test results for 3.4" barrels but for mouse guns, I think you're really guessing about how well a round will do. it's not necesarily a linear regression where you can plot penetration and expansion based on barrel length.
So a lot of times, owners of sub compacts look at the data out of a 4" barrel and make the best decision they can based on that.
I think it's rare to turn up test results for <3" barrels.
I saw some test results for 3.4" barrels but for mouse guns, I think you're really guessing about how well a round will do. it's not necesarily a linear regression where you can plot penetration and expansion based on barrel length.
So a lot of times, owners of sub compacts look at the data out of a 4" barrel and make the best decision they can based on that.
All info is appreciated at this time. Cal. considerations 1st. then fit and ease of operation/accuracy, last - price, warranty. Thanks for comparisons of wood versus bone strength and the links to the other sites that have more info on this. Will have to read them carefully tomorow after I play with some hand rolled .243 loads. P.S. from what Ive seen at the Win. ammo site looks like 9mm is the way to go as far as penetration is concerned. Love that graph showing the buckshot path.
Maybe because I saw it 'live' (on TV) when I read these type threads I always think of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald with a 2"bbl 38spl. The bullet was probably a lead round nose and Oswald went down like a pole axed steer and was dead within the hour. No +P in them days.
I generally carry a Kahr MK40 with Gold Dot but sometimes a Kahr P380 with Golden Saber or Gold Dot. The NYPD shot a guy 21 times with 9mm and he survived and is awaiting his day in court.
Not saying the 9mm won't do the job but that shot placement is an important part of the equation regardless of the caliber. I feel a bit more secure with my .40 in my IWB but I don't feel 'naked' with the 380. Shoot very well and accurately at the requisite distances too. I'm reasonably confident it will do it's part if I do mine.
I generally carry a Kahr MK40 with Gold Dot but sometimes a Kahr P380 with Golden Saber or Gold Dot. The NYPD shot a guy 21 times with 9mm and he survived and is awaiting his day in court.
Not saying the 9mm won't do the job but that shot placement is an important part of the equation regardless of the caliber. I feel a bit more secure with my .40 in my IWB but I don't feel 'naked' with the 380. Shoot very well and accurately at the requisite distances too. I'm reasonably confident it will do it's part if I do mine.
Edward429451
Moderator
Jack Ruby's shot was under ideal conditions. I would stick with FMJ in the sub calibers and test it in water jugs lined up and go with the round that penetrates the most jugs.
g.willikers
New member
Don't forget all those tests at theboxotruth.com