Handguns arn't just for shooting bad guys.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-02/logan-canyon-river-rescue/52328646/1
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-02/logan-canyon-river-rescue/52328646/1
Different (good) use of a handgun
- Thread starter kraigwy
- Start date
The shooter used his handgun to shoot out a window on a sinking car ...... risky. Entering flowing water to save people trapped in the sinking car ...... risky ....
In another thread (the Wendy's robbery/shooting) there was the proposition put forward that it is foolish to put yourself at risk to do the right thing ..... I am glad the rescuersin this case, including the window shooter here, had courage to act, even if they did not have the optimum tools, training or conditions. The families of the three trapped kids are very grateful as well, I imagine......
In another thread (the Wendy's robbery/shooting) there was the proposition put forward that it is foolish to put yourself at risk to do the right thing ..... I am glad the rescuersin this case, including the window shooter here, had courage to act, even if they did not have the optimum tools, training or conditions. The families of the three trapped kids are very grateful as well, I imagine......
jimbob86, I realize you aren't criticizing, and are in fact praising the good Samaritan - and rightfully so. Just a comment on one of your assumed risks, though: It was not really risky, per se, to allow water into the car. The doors can't open if you don't - the greater risk would have been in waiting for the water to slowly fill the car. Greater drowning risk, and greater risk of hypothermia and loss of consciousness.
I'd have been a lot more worried about the icy water. Hypothermia hits fast and hard. According to my SCUBA instructors back when, water is 25X faster at conducting heat (or cold) than is air.
Good job by the ex-officer.
Did they say whether he called it in before he entered the river, just in case? I could see arguments for doing that, or for going in without delay. Just curious to know how this was handled.
I'd have been a lot more worried about the icy water. Hypothermia hits fast and hard. According to my SCUBA instructors back when, water is 25X faster at conducting heat (or cold) than is air.
Good job by the ex-officer.
Did they say whether he called it in before he entered the river, just in case? I could see arguments for doing that, or for going in without delay. Just curious to know how this was handled.
As I understood it from reading the story, the car was mostly underwater when he shot the window ...... the risk I was thinking about involved striking someone inside with the shot...... he used what he had when time was short, and it worked out.
Again, Kudos to the Couragous!
If it had not worked out, he would be assailed by many as "reckless" and "foolish". Thank Heaven for the Reckless and Foolish!
Again, Kudos to the Couragous!
If it had not worked out, he would be assailed by many as "reckless" and "foolish". Thank Heaven for the Reckless and Foolish!
The way I read it, and from the news story on Fox News, the kids were unconscience and had to be revived. Sounds to me he had no choice.
He jumped in the water and acted, his actions saved the kids. He used what he had in the time he had.
I don't think he had any other choice or options.
He jumped in the water and acted, his actions saved the kids. He used what he had in the time he had.
I don't think he had any other choice or options.
FrankenMauser
New member
Not all of the witnesses agree on what happened (check the various reports on KSL.com). But, they do agree that one of the children was already unconscious, when the good Samaritans arrived.
I have my doubts about how far "submerged" the vehicle was in the river*, based on location, time of year, and photos of the scene; but there is no question: They saved lives. (*it's more of a stream, or creek, than a river.)
I wouldn't have shot out the window (he had a knife, Surefire, spare mags, and the pistol available), but it worked out this time.
I have my doubts about how far "submerged" the vehicle was in the river*, based on location, time of year, and photos of the scene; but there is no question: They saved lives. (*it's more of a stream, or creek, than a river.)
I wouldn't have shot out the window (he had a knife, Surefire, spare mags, and the pistol available), but it worked out this time.
"If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid." - unknown
In my case, my carry piece is Ruger's clone of a Colt SAA - big heavy sucker with a pointed steel butt end. I strongly suspect it would make a superb window smacker without firing a shot, and as long as it wasn't cocked the risk of an AD/ND is more or less non-existent even if my finger-off-trigger discipline slips in the heat of the moment.
I also carry cutlery. My multi-pliers has a serrated sheeps-foot blade that would be perfect as a seat belt cutter. Something like this:
The spine is blunt where you would work it next to somebody's skin - makes a great rescue blade.
In my case, my carry piece is Ruger's clone of a Colt SAA - big heavy sucker with a pointed steel butt end. I strongly suspect it would make a superb window smacker without firing a shot, and as long as it wasn't cocked the risk of an AD/ND is more or less non-existent even if my finger-off-trigger discipline slips in the heat of the moment.
I also carry cutlery. My multi-pliers has a serrated sheeps-foot blade that would be perfect as a seat belt cutter. Something like this:
The spine is blunt where you would work it next to somebody's skin - makes a great rescue blade.
It amazes me when I see cops beating on a car window with flashlights and night sticks while the Paramedics set a few feet away.
Most EMTS and paramedics carry an automatic centerpunch in their belt holster. This simple device will break a side window. When I was a Deputy SO in AR, every deputy carried one on his duty belt. I carry one in my center console.
I commend the good Samaritan for his action. He acted to save the children. He assessed the situation and determined that he could save the kids and not loose his life. He used the tools he had available. A Pistol shot at a glancing angle will shatter safety glass and not enter the cab of the vehicle.
I on, the other hand am a poor swimmer and could not have saved the kids with out a safety line. For that reason I would not have entered the water. I am not a tombstone hero.
Most EMTS and paramedics carry an automatic centerpunch in their belt holster. This simple device will break a side window. When I was a Deputy SO in AR, every deputy carried one on his duty belt. I carry one in my center console.
I commend the good Samaritan for his action. He acted to save the children. He assessed the situation and determined that he could save the kids and not loose his life. He used the tools he had available. A Pistol shot at a glancing angle will shatter safety glass and not enter the cab of the vehicle.
I on, the other hand am a poor swimmer and could not have saved the kids with out a safety line. For that reason I would not have entered the water. I am not a tombstone hero.
FrankenMauser
New member
All rescuers were able to remain standing (in water no deeper than their knees or ankles).
Yes there are a lot of great tools out there for breaking into cars. There are a lot of great tools out there for cutting seat belts, getting into houses, cutting barbed wire fences, etc etc etc.
But how many people "know" what they are going to get into in our daily lives. I'm sure if the ex-cop knew he was going to have to jump into icy water to break through glass and rescue kids, he would have dressed appropriately, carried the right tools, etc etc.
But he did, he used what he had. Had he had all the tools necessary to cover ever task out there, he would have sunk when he jumped in the water.
Hind site is great. But you can't prepare for everything.
Reminds me of when I went to the Hazardous Device School (EOD School) at Huntsville AL. They made lots of fake bombs we were to de arm. One case, they would grab us out of a class room, point out a fake device and tell us we have to disarm it with what we had in our pockets.
Afterwords we had a debriefing. One Cop from NYC, just got up and said he was blown up. Instructors asked why, he simply said "you ever try to disarm a bomb with 35 cents and a comb".
I read all the time on this and other forums about people saying they would carry this, or that, and they always have X on their person. Heck I didn't carry that much stuff when I was humping the jungles of Vietnam for months at a time.
Fireman and cops can carry a lot of stuff in their vehicles, we carry what's in our pockets. I carry a Leatherman tool around the home place. Handy. I don't carry it when I go square dancing or to my granddaughters ball games.
If you carried a semi truck load of tools with you everywhere, some day, some time, you're gonna run across an incident where you need something else. Just ask your mechanic how many times in his job he has to stop and run to the parts store for some special tool.
I get amazed when I read these post, someone always said "he" should have been carrying X, or Y.
It just don't happen, you have to use what you have, and thats just want this guy did, and it worked.
But how many people "know" what they are going to get into in our daily lives. I'm sure if the ex-cop knew he was going to have to jump into icy water to break through glass and rescue kids, he would have dressed appropriately, carried the right tools, etc etc.
But he did, he used what he had. Had he had all the tools necessary to cover ever task out there, he would have sunk when he jumped in the water.
Hind site is great. But you can't prepare for everything.
Reminds me of when I went to the Hazardous Device School (EOD School) at Huntsville AL. They made lots of fake bombs we were to de arm. One case, they would grab us out of a class room, point out a fake device and tell us we have to disarm it with what we had in our pockets.
Afterwords we had a debriefing. One Cop from NYC, just got up and said he was blown up. Instructors asked why, he simply said "you ever try to disarm a bomb with 35 cents and a comb".
I read all the time on this and other forums about people saying they would carry this, or that, and they always have X on their person. Heck I didn't carry that much stuff when I was humping the jungles of Vietnam for months at a time.
Fireman and cops can carry a lot of stuff in their vehicles, we carry what's in our pockets. I carry a Leatherman tool around the home place. Handy. I don't carry it when I go square dancing or to my granddaughters ball games.
If you carried a semi truck load of tools with you everywhere, some day, some time, you're gonna run across an incident where you need something else. Just ask your mechanic how many times in his job he has to stop and run to the parts store for some special tool.
I get amazed when I read these post, someone always said "he" should have been carrying X, or Y.
It just don't happen, you have to use what you have, and thats just want this guy did, and it worked.
As I understand it, firing underwater is reasonably safe once the weapon is fully immersed, as pressure will be equalized. (Not horribly effective, but enough to break glass or inflict injury at very close range.)
The greater hazard is when water is in the barrel, but not filling the barrel, which can cause pressure imbalances and spikes, and possible catastrophic failure.
(IE, as I understand it, I'd probably hold the gun underwater for a 3-Mississippi count before pulling the trigger.)
The greater hazard is when water is in the barrel, but not filling the barrel, which can cause pressure imbalances and spikes, and possible catastrophic failure.
(IE, as I understand it, I'd probably hold the gun underwater for a 3-Mississippi count before pulling the trigger.)