Did you survive the 21 ft test?

DID YOU SURVIVE THE 21 FT TEST?

  • Total voters
    38
With any encounter, you should be attempting to flee WHILE DRAWING YOUR WEAPON.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I'm just trying to convey reality.

Many people believe that their anemic or newly found HTH is a foolproof defense against an untrained knife wielder. That can get them killed.
Even a highly trained and skilled MA pro will only escape injury about half the time, at best.
A novice is nearly a dead man walking....and therefore should 'disengage and withdraw'.

There are SD handgun instructors who also teach SD knife tactics....never telling the wide eyed student the odds of escaping uninjured or alive. Never emphasizing awareness, distance first and cover/obstacles. Never explaining that a knife wound or stab is usually worse than a .45 to the same spot.

Again, false confidence and poor training that can get you killed.
.
 
The scenario we're theorizing/training with here is: You can't get away. You're being charged at 21 feet by a guy with a knife, and he aims to run up and stab/slash you with the knife. You have reasonable space to move, but there's nowhere to run. You're confined in this space. You have a gun. What do you do?
Click to expand...

The truth??

Invoke your god, prepare to die....then fight like hell.

People that try to kill up close and personal usually finish the job.
.
 
Skyguy, I think you speak an unfortunate truth. Lots of people train, and then when they develop some moderate skill, they believe they are bullet-proof. They believe that they can walk into any situation, without regard for how dangerous it is, because they can always just "whoop-out a can of Kik But Foo." In my dojo, we call this the Cobra-Kai Syndrome, and it will often get the ego-centric novice into alot of trouble.

Knife fights are bad situations. Chances are overwhelming that, if you get into a knife fight, you're going to get hurt REALLY bad. Yes. A 1" thick, 3" long knife blade can often leave a hole that bleeds worse than a bullet wound. (Remind me to tell you about sinking my live katana into my left knee 2 days before my brown belt test in Iaido... God, what a mess!)

But, does this mean that when you see a guy with a knife, and you can't get away from him, that you automatically just lay down and accept death? NEVER!!! These techniques will take your survivability from 15% and elevate it to around 35% or 40%. More often than not if you get into a knife fight - even if you do the technique right, you're going to suffer a wound that, without hospital treatment, would be fatal. But, it's better than nothing! And, that's what survivability is about. It's cutting your losses, and taking your chances on combat as a means to just barely get you through the event.

You're absolutely right. Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.
 
first time I did it as part of my USAF training I passed on my back shooting between my knees.
I thought I was in for one of those yelling in your face moments followed by drop and give me 50.
Instructor told me "if it works you pass.

AFS
 
Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.
Click to expand...

You're right and I agree....for those who are SD 'students'.

But, most folks aren't in training. Don't know combatives. They just need to know the basics of survival from attack.
They could be untrained, old or physically impaired. And that's why they should know the tactics of awareness, avoidance, disengage, distance, cover/obstacles.

The 21ft drill is just a learning tool that should convince most folks that if they have a gun they should learn early draw. (another thing poor instructors fail to teach....merely to cover their own butts)

Injury/death is part of a fight.
Everyone should fight for their life, but only as their last resort.
.
 
Model520fan,

You are mostly right about the knife attack. A determined, premeditated knife attacker is going to close the distance on you before unleashing his attack or intentions and in all probability disappear before you know what happened.


The 21 ft rule as stated in a previous post is a learning tool to show that even when you know your opponent has a knife, he is still capable of rearranging your medical records if you don't act fast enough with gaining distance and a counter-attack.

I couldn't agree more with your comments about staying away from dangerous areas, situational awareness, and watching peoples hands.
 
Skyguy,

While I am not saying that everyone should attempt to use martial arts against a knife weilding attacker, I sure as heck don't advocate rolling over and dying either. If running is an option, then of course you should run. If you are not a fast runner or if you have a physical disability, then you should fight. I know that an attacker armed with a knife is dangerous. I also know that if someone is already at a run and closing in on me from a distance of 21 feet or less, then he already has a head start. I feel that we should train for these scenarios and that we could all benefit from some hand to hand training. Even if we never use it, at least we get some exercise out of it.
 
I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.

And to answer the poll question, No I cannot draw and fire accurately in the time a determined attacker can cover 21 feet. :o :(
 
I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.
Click to expand...

The walking stick/cane is a formidable weapon and hard to overcome when used by even a novice. Don't mess with a walking stick or you could get your arms or legs broken.

Canes/walking sticks create distance and are an obstacle.
They can 'stab' and 'cut' and 'sweep' and crack your skull. They're a very, very good weapon and are socially acceptable.

I see many older guys carrying a walking stick and I assume that they have it for reasons beyond support. :)
.
 
Fortunately/Unfortunately

Fortunately I can carry my stick anywhere had have the scars to prove its necessity. Fortunately those scars to not inhibit normal walking, moving, standing activities (a very good thing since 95% of my job involves these things) without the stick.
Unfortunately these scars do prohibit my ability to run which means that my responses to such threats as the knife-wielding attacker are necessarily directed at inflicting maximum damage as I cannot deflect and run away.
Fortunately, I build my own walking sticks and they are more than up to the task of support and defense.
 
"Walking" stick...

M14fan, great suggestion on the walking stick! They really are versitile and formidable weapons. One of my black-belt styles is Muso-Shindo Jodo, which is use of the japanese "jo," or short staff (around 48".) Having studied about these "walking sticks," believe me, they are great weapons.

Two points about carrying a "walking" stick...

First, legality... It's really ironic that most states that authorize licensure to carry concealed firearms also flat-out prohibit the carrying of a "club." Moreover, the legal definition of a "club," centers on the "intent to go armed." In other words, it's generally ok to carry a random stick down the street (which is good, because there are thousands of different kinds of sticks used in the world). And, if you think it's a garden stake, then it's a garden stake. If you think it's a cane, then it's a cane. If you think it's a circus tent pole, then it's a circus tent pole. BUT, if you think it's a weapon, then it's illegal to carry. So, when carrying a stick, we're stuck in this weird paradox, whereby we must play a charade with our "apparent intent" in carrying it.

What I usually do is take a standard jo, purchased at a martial arts supply store, and I slap a 3/4" furniture stopper on the bottom of it. Voualla! Instant "walking" stick! But, you still have to be careful... Alot of states (including TN, if I'm not mistaken) also have a length limit on walking sticks, whereby it's presumed to be carried "with intent to go armed" if it's beyond a certain length. Always check your jurisdictional laws!!! And, when in doubt, ask a real lawyer.

(Side note: I think Tennessee is about to pass a new licensure to carry clubs, which will allow for things like collapsable batons, but I haven't heard anything definite about it yet...)

OK. Thing two: Train, train, train! Walking sticks, like all weapons, are deadly in the hands of a trained fighter, and are slow and ineffective in the hands of a novice. Don't believe me? Watch a novice kid chop firewood sometime. It's like watching a garden hose spray against a concrete wall: Lots of movement, but nothing accomplished!

Yes, friends. There is a right and a wrong way to swing a stick. If you're going to carry one, train with it. Find a pro, and get some lessons. Otherwise, when you do swing that stick at the mugger on the street, you're just asking for him to take your stick away and beat you with it!

Incidentally, M14fan, you say you have "scars." What happened?
 
Mva

Crushed a leg. Got to keep it with lots of metal but it is a literal pain most of the time. I can and have run on it a couple of times. I cannot run quickly and I always pay for it for several days. My weight does not help either. The ONLY time I run is if someone is dying. I have a significant MA background and am very comfortable using my cane as well as my sidearm. The surgical scars on both sides of my leg are my ticket to carrying my cane anywhere though I rarely actually need it.

Used to live near Knoxville. Went to HS in the mighty micropolis of Coalfield.
 
Ah, Coalfield! Booming metropolis to the nature lover! ;) Great deer hunting up there, or so I hear.

Well, I'm sorry to hear about your leg. But, it sounds like you're adapting nicely.
 
Thanx

Happened in 01. Watched the world trade center bombing with external fixators. Told me I would not walk for a year. I was wearing lead and doing cases in 6 months. I guess I am hard headed. Most of the time my gait is normal unless the day stretches to 10 or 12 hours.

Mostly a good excuse to carry a stick.:D Really cannot run well though.

As for the deer hunting in and around Coalfield, I hear the same thing. Never had the time when I lived there and havent been there in 20+ years. Pretty country though.
 
Thank you for saying it ....

The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.
Click to expand...

BAD, BAD IDEA. Who in their right mind would use a working firearm on a training/demonstration, firing at someone? Yee-gawds, man, are you nuts?
 
I don't think the intent was for you to fire at your friend. That is why you are facing away from each other.
 
Yeah... Rubber guns are good. Snap caps if you've got 'em, but I don't like to have snap caps out unless ALL live ammo is locked up (in a car, or otherwise...). Just a personal safety preference of mine... Being that my (Sensei's) dojo is actually on University property, we don't get to train with the live guns that often...

Rubber guns, pointed fingers, sticks, ...whatever it takes to be safe. And, just because you're training, doesn't give you the right to be a safety-moron.

and train, don't forget to train!
 
Never did that, but I did have an NRA instructor demonstrate with snap caps that I could not draw, rack a round into the chamber, and bring up the weapon before he was on me from 25 feet away. That was a lesson that one always carries with one in the chamber.
 
I use to practice something similar back when I was still actively taking martial arts classes. Instructors would take turns charging or being charged. We even used water guns held at the ready and it was still tough. The first few times were tough & we knew what was going on...couldn't help but wonder how much worse it would be as a surprise attack.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top