Did the old-timers use lube in cap & ball revolvers?

Mec, If I remember right you posted the original Colt before and it was something to the effect as follows:
Load the chamber with powder leaving just enough room for a ball.
They also went on and stated "Not" to use lube, wads or fillers.
That makes me believe that much of the chain fires were caused by careless or just reckless loading. It's my thinking that some of the chain fires today come from over sized caps and the practice of some to pinch the caps to an oval shape to make them stay on the nipple. This is a good way to lose caps or leave an open area under the cap for flame to inter the nipple.
This is all guessing on my part and no facts to back it up but I would think that Colt did some extensive testing of there Revolvers to arrive at a proper and safe loading method.
So far I'm way over a 100 shots with no lube over or under powder and ball with no ill effects, Mike
 
The colt dealy said not to use patches or wads but didn't mention grease. that never did make it into the literature until after cartridge guns became state of the art. I believe though that individuals were using grease over the bullets in the Mexican war since multiple discharges were an issue there. Not hard to see why that might be the case when you look at the shape of the picket bullet. Any mis-alignment on seating or an undersized bullet would open a vent right into the main charge.
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Hey mec....where by chance did ya get that old ad? I like to collect things like that..anyways..another queation on this chain firing subject. Do ya ever read or hear about Civil war soldiers ever being maimed, or possibly blinded by chain fires, or exessive gas leaks, or even cap fragments flyin back....cause im pretty sure The army on either side didnt require their soldiers to wear saftey goggles while firing.................
 
Missoura Don , I'm sure Mec will be back on here soon but the one place I know of that has these copies of the original instructions is Dixie Gun Works. It seems to me that they are selling for about $10.00. Hope this helps, Mike
PS I have a copy of the original drawing of the Colt 51 Navy that was submitted for the patent . If you want I can post it here and you can print it out.
 
Hey Mike, yea, that would be great man!!! I'm gonna check out Dixie gun works site and try to find that Ad...anything you have to add would be greatly appreciated...thanks again!!
 
That would probably be the best source. I got this one from Bates and I don't know where he found the original. You see it published in just about every book about Colt Revolvers.

I haven/t read much about that sort of injury but there were claims that you could judge how long a soldier had been in one of those brigades that had the Colt root revolving rifles by the number of fingers left on his left hand. I believe RL Wilson repeated an epitath in his book that went something like

" Killed accidentally with a colt revolver
It was of the older type without the pins
between the chambers
Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven
Go ye therefore, and do likewise."
 
Remington Kid, when you make the lube pills they have to have enough wax that they "stay solid". In hot weather add more pariffine wax. Ifin ya want to let the gun sit with lube pills in it and aren't sure if the oil in them will contaminate the powder then use a little circle of wax paper under the pill or just leave the pill out altogether. Smear some over the top of the ball. The waxy sticks and not much of it gets blown off like grease when other chambers fire. I noticed that my pills bleed a little onto thin cig. papers when I put them into paper cartridges under the ball. Never seems to affect the powder charge. It feels the same anyhow. You can't give lube pills a bad rap ifun they are made wrong. Wool wads with lube on them probably work well but why use the wool to suspend the lube/wax under the ball when the lube pill can be made "solid"? About balls coming forward with recoil.... even a tight ball can come forward on occasion especially when it's the first cylinder fired and the chambers are clean. In one of my 1860 Colts the chambers are .455 and I use a .464 ball. In my Walker the chambers are .464 and I use a .472 ball. I guess the lube pills wax up the chambers and keep them too clean so I try to use tight balls. Anywhoooo, it's hard to see if any fouling broke loose on loading a ball or there is a void in a ball that is shaved "open" when chambered. It would be a good idea to at least put some liquid lube in a little visine bottle and put a couple of drops in each chamber. Let it run down around the ball around where it seals against the chamber. That way if there is some kind of slight opening the liquid lube will run in and wet the powder there. I've done that. Load er up with the naked ball and drop a couple of drops of Ballistol in each chamber and fire away. If you want to leave a gun loaded and feel sure that it will fire then just smear some sticky wax lube pill over the ball. The ball would be at the top of the chamber if the gun is for defense because of the heavier powder charge and it would only take a small amount of wax/lube to go around the edges of the ball. Put the right size caps that fit tight and feel secure the gun will fire and not chain fire when needed the most. I've done that when leaving a percussion gun loaded for a length of time. Good luck Bud.:D
 
Wayner, All good ideas and suggestions you gave above. Tried several recipes for the pills including straight wax but never found anything I liked for over the powder. I have used them over the ball and thats fine.
As for the caps I'm a firm believer in the right size caps only. I do know that many people believe that if you don't have to pinch them to make them stay on then you have the wrong size caps. Thats the reason so many people feel that #11 should be used so that you can pinch them and they work. I'm still scratching my head about that one. Find the cap that fits like a glove and you should be all set.
My reason for using no grease over or under the ball is just to get back to basics and it's an experiment I've been wanting to try and I don't advocate anyone else doing it unless you believe what Colt recommends and that you know that your caps and balls fit really tight. My 51 Navy will shave lead from a .375 ball but I'm still using a .380 and it's really tight. As you can see from Mec's Colt document above they do not recommend using any wad or patches and make no reference to any lubes over or under the ball.
Others have done it that way for years with no chain fires at all. In fact I was chatting with a cowboy on another site and he has been shooting C&B Revolvers since 1956 without lube and has never had a chain fire.
Thanks again for your recommendation's and I'll let you know if Colt knew what he was talking about or not:) Mike
 
Remington Kid, alright there BUd. You are correct about the caps. There is no better way than to use the cap that fits like a glove on the cone/tube/nipple.I will admit to pinching caps sopmetimes but I like to change out nipples or get the right size caps so the caps are a "glove fit". I scratch my head too when I hear people say that pinching the cap is the "right" way versas a cap that fits properly. I guess a person needs mechanical aptitude to understand there is nothing better than a proper fitting cap that stays on fully seated wthout the pinching. Do you imagine there may have been other advertisements or instructions by the Colt manufacturers that recommended using grease or lube over the ball? Weather proofing maybe? More detailed instructions? Too bad the Colt factory burned down uh? There would have been a lot of interesting history in those burned documents. What a bummer. Take care Bud.:D
 
Wayner, Mec has done a lot more research on the Lube over the ball history than I have but I personally have never seen any articles by Colt or any others to that effect. That sure doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere.
As Mec described above it seems that the feelings are that the stupidity of a few lead to the idea of grease over the ball along will bullets loaded wrong or ill fitting in the chambers. :eek:
As for wads it may be that I don't know who came up with that for Revolvers.I liked using them and still will depending what I'm loading and what it's for.They also seem to help take up some room in the chamber.
I never have used any kind of filler and really don't see any reason for it unless your using such light loads that you need to to keep the load seated down on the powder. These are just my thoughts on the subject and could be totally wrong. It won't be the first time:)
 
To grease or not

Chain fire, I think can be caused by lose caps, lose balls,
and the wrong/to long percussion nipples.

I have been to close to chain fires six times now. You can
tell the difference from the sound and the end results of the
look of the gun whether the cylinder fired from the front of
it or the back.

From the front, most cylinders but not all were well greased,
the sound is a little more of a loud whoosh. No visible harm
done to the guns or shooter, unless you count the shooters
nerves and no friends that want to shoot with them.

Firing from the back of the cylinder is a boom/roar or two.
I have seen it caused by lose caps, worn out/over sized hole
in the nipples, lose nipples and the wrong nipples that were
too long and when fired, the recoil of the cylinder hitting the
recoil shield of the revolver fired the rest.

Much harder on the gun and shooter.
The gun looks like you used it for the target. From what I have
seen the bullet that hits the loading lever is the one that is the
hardest on the gun. The ones that hit the sides of the barrel is
what is hardest on bystanders.
= less friends that want to shoot with them.



Tinker2
 
Tink, :) I can see why the guy standing around you would have a need for a couple shots of Jack! Your story is much the same as I have heard from others as far as no harm done to the shooter but a case of shakes for a while.
Are you able to shot at all yet? Hope your healing alright, Mike
 
As far as pinching your caps to fit a small nipple, how come all caps are pert'near perfect round?

If you gotta pinch 'em, wouldn't you think the mfg. would make them all oval, pinched? You can squeeze a pinched cap on a tube that it fits about as easy as one that is small.

I druther have a cap that fits the nipple kinda snug than have to pinch 'em. For one thing, you still have a path to the hole in the cone in the ends of the pinched oval cap, or to the priming compound in the cap, for them who are paranoid. Fire bouncin' from the cap just snapped, and the fire outa the just fired nipple, could jet back up into the next cap's flares, the oval ends of it.

A cap that seals off the nipple keeps it out of the firing channel.

And, like Tinker said, too long a cone, smack the capped nipple back to the recoil shield, could be a multi fire, not a chain, all going off at once.

Cheers,

George
 
Remington Kid, you ever take ye lube and mix it into bees or paraffin wax so it ain't greasy and micro wave it to liquid and saturate wool wads. You like the grease lube over the wad that's over the powder that's under the ball so I figure you'd like the waxy lubed wad too. When the lube is suspended in wax and that isn't greasy but more solid once it cools and solidifies then it doesn't comtaminate the powder. At least not right away. Maybe after some time like days. When the lubey wax is saturated in the wad the fire melts some of it and spreads it on the barrel in front of the powder so the fouling sticks less. That guy Rowdy Yates that won the Cass nationals three times(or something like that) with cap&ballers uses Thompson wads and Thompson lube on them under the balls in a pair of 1860's. He devised a "cap guard" to keep the caps out of the action(fall down in front of the hammer) and I imagine that helps win matches too but the wool wads saturated with some waxy lube helps too I guess. I think that in the old days there were folks that used lube and those that didn't just like today.
 
Wayner, Been mixen and messen with different recipes for lubes for about 40 years and still do it. In fact I just sent a second batch of some of my concoction to Old Dragoon to play with . Bees wax is one method in some of my concoctions as well as candle wax and canning wax and hell , I may have tried ear wax along the way:)
I never said pills don't work but here's what happens to me. My hobby is tracking and photographing Bear in these mountains and I do from the first of June to mid Oct or longer. It really gets hot and humid here and my Remington .44 may be loaded for day's before I have to shoot a snake or scare off a PO'd Bear. It doesn't take long for the pill to screw up the powder or for the lube over a ball to melt out of the chambers and into your holster. That's one of the reasons I started using it between a dry wad and the ball.
I agree that it helps keep the barrel a little cleaner and the fouling softer.I also agree that they work if your going to use the gun soon and not let it sit for day's. They don't work for me when I leave my Rem loaded for a while in 90+ degree day's. That's one of the reasons I want to get back to basics and Colts method of loading there Revolvers. I may still use lube at the range or if I'm going to do a lot of shooting but for carrying in the woods I see no reason for it and my testing so far shows that, Mike
 
George, Just about done with the wifes "Honey Do" list. I got a bit of a reprieve while the snow and cold was here but it looks like I have to put the apron back on now:(
I'm with you a 100 percent on the cap's fitting. I'm sure you remember when I went round and round with your friend about the proper caps to use on a Revolver. He sure insisted that if you didn't have to pinch them they were the wrong caps.'I'll take form fitting caps any day and have used some that were a hair on the small side. There's is no reason for a person to have to pinch caps with all the different size one's out there today and the size and fit varies from one manufacture to another. I like the #10 Remington's because they fit my nipples perfectly and they seen a little longer also then most. If I try a #10 CCI they fit a little to snug but I think it's because they seem to have a thicker skin but the funny thing is the CCI #11 will fit fine. I had some bad ignition problems with the CCI so I don't use them. It could have just been a bad batch. Take care, Mike
 
Remington Kid, what mountains you track bear in? I agree with the contention that you don't want anything to foul powder when in close proximity to bears. When you said you agree the lube pills keep the barrel a "little cleaner" I thought I should rehash this. Ifin the pills have the right wax/lube combination they keep the barrel "really" clean as in "rifling stays perfectly clear".(may turn black but with some mixes it stays shiny) Any combination I've tried seemed to work well too. It's the lube pill under the ball that I think causes the pills to work well. I'll have to mix some up someday for "hot weather" use and let them sit in the gun for a week or two and see ifin they foul the powder. I guess I'd just use a lot more paraffin since it stays solid even in a good amount of heat. May be though that using a lot of pariffin wax that the lubing and fouling decrease may not be good. I'll have to see some day. I think it would be pretty difficult to find a lube to mix with wax that doesn't bleed out some.I've let my guns sit loaded in hot weather in the past and they went "Bang" when I fired them but.... I don't remember how well they went bang. You load em hot when going out tracking bear just in case you run into too close proximity to a mamma with some cubs? Ifin I was doing bear tracking with carrying a cap&baller I'd be loadin hot with a conical and FFFg 777 Hodgdon powder. ha ha ha A Remington can load a good amount of 777 and still fit a conical in there.
 
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