Did I Overreact?

[wojtekimbier]

Being prepared is not overreacting. Doing something stupid and unnecessary when prepared is overreacting.

This ^ pretty much sums up everything.
IMO you're not overreacting as long as you're doing nothing wrong to the other person (like scaring the crap out of them). It's good to have a gun just in case anything goes bad. If everything goes alright he won't even know you were armed.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by wojtekimbier: It's good to have a gun just in case anything goes bad.

If have opened the door to face one, two, or three violent criminal actors, having a gun may nor prove as helpful as many people seem to imagine.

You may be able to deter someone, or not. You may be able to shoot someone--or not. But the gun will not make you invulnerable.

Leave the door closed.

 

[X_shooter]

You did OK. Plan A - Remember phones and doors dont need to be answered. Hands don't need to be shaken and you dont need to engage in conversations. Predators rely on human nature to gain advantage over their victims. Being polite can get you killed in some situations. While it may get you some strange looks, you have to evaluate rather quickly whether a threat is present. Guess wrong and you have to implement plan B.

Thinking about sticking with plan A reduces the liklihood of needing a plan B.

 

[Papa D]

I totally agree with your choice. I lived in a rural area for a while I work from home. Once, there was a pounding on my door. Not a polite knock, but a pounding. This was in the middle of the day, when my wife had our car out running errands. I grabbed my 12 gauge, loaded with Deer slugs (no neighbors, mind you), Had it behind the door. Guy on the other side claimed to be from a "Frozen Food distributor" but did not say what company he was from. There was an additional man sitting in his pickup. I advised him I was working at that time, but if he wanted to return later in the evening both my wife and I would be home to discuss what products he was selling. He never returned. I know in my heart he was casing my house.

 

[Brit]

The only visitors we get who are not known to us, and the cell phone has already confirmed they are coming, Religious Lady's, they come two by two, not so much anymore, 2 or 3 times a year?

"Sorry Lady's, no Soliciting, go back and read the signs you missed when you came in!"

I am fully dressed, Glock 19 in belt holster, in my ratty old dressing gown, it is in a surgically altered pocket! Cell phone in the other, like now!

A firearm on your person you are armed, if not, you are not.

We have had one break in in the last 8 years, we knew who, Mother threw him out, not seen here since. Drugs, what else.

 

[briandg]

shoot no. What you did was a textbook perfect operation. The kid gained access to you safely, got his work done, and left without perceiving you as a threat, and you were left unmolested.

I wasn't there, I don't know you, don't know anything, and don't even know how much of your story is based on fact, as it is all seen from your own perspective, the perspective of an imperfect mind.

let me reiterate. You live in a world that includes constant risk. Risk comes in the form of people occasionally knocking on doors and killing the people who answer. In fact, that happened only a few years ago in this very town, a man rang a doorbell and shot his ex girlfriend to death right in front of her two children the second the door was opened. He also murdered two individuals in a gang execution less than a block away from my home, in fact. he was an evil man, and God knows, it may have been him at your door. Do not dismiss this possibility.

So, the doorbell rang, and you discretely armed yourself, had your wife take up a defensive posture, you examined the situation outside the door, and when you were convinced that the risk was minimal to non-existent, you opened the door and transacted the business. As you present it, that is an A+

Do you HONESTLY believe, even a little bit, that you did something wrong? Honestly, please ask yourself what you may have done wrong, and then assess those items fairly. Unless you can find a part that is obviously, grossly wrong, and makes absolutely no sense in retrospect, why would you question the decision? My belief is that you are merely second guessing yourself, trying to reframe this into a more "logical" (read this "what somebody else might think is more logical) event. Maybe your father wouldn't have answered the door like this, the guys on seinfeld wouldn't have, the people who complain about gun owners wouldn't have. Now you are questioning yourself, because lots of people are already questioning your decisions, and telling you that you're a bloody idiot just for owning one in the first place.

I'd like to point something out. When you talk about self defense, there is one common thing you encounter time after time. People telling you what not to do, or you will rot in prison. Don't use handloads, don't use this or another ammo or gun, drag the body into the house, warn, don't warn, point, don't point, wait until a weapon is shown, wait until the weapon is in your face, wait until the goon racks his slide, until he threatens to kill you, so on.

People want to look smart. They will impart "wisdom" all day long. Sometimes, that wisdom is absolute horse leavings. but you, you are left with nagging doubts. There are people who have told you that you must wait until you are in the very gravest of danger before you even think about deadly force, at risk of lethal injection for killing a retarded ten year old who pointed a cap gun at you. There are others who say "damn the conseuences, blow that goon away!" Is it any wonder that a person is left with second thoughts?

You have learned what needs to be done. You have learned what rules to follow. Continue to learn, continue to think, and when you are presented with a situation use your best judgement. one of the smartest people I know said this.

If you make a mistake, it is because you used the best information that you had at the time, and interpreted to the best of your ability. You shouldn't think of it as a mistake. It was a failure of information and how you used it.

Two months ago, I had a situation. I was approached by gang members who apparently intended to physically attack me, seriously injure me. I drew a gun and stopped the attack by presenting the weapon. There were so many things that I did that were not optimal for the situation, but everything I did was "right" for the situation as it unfolded. Only in hindsight can I sit and analyze, and criticize my decisions based on the information. I've learned from a lot of it.

don't allow yourself to be forced into bad choices by people who will second guess your every decision. Don't make choices based in improbable scenarios and warnings that will cause you to make mistakes in judgement, keeping yourself from doing what you must do when the need comes.

i drew my pistol and put it on his chest. Ironically, the 20+ year old goon who stood at least 3 feet taller than me, outweighed me by easily 30 pounds, looked me squarely in the eye, sneered, and asked me if I was ready to spend the rest of my life in prison for killing a 17 year old unarmed boy. Oh, brother. Should I have listened to his warning, and put away my handgun, giving him the opportunity to kill me?

The unarmed 17 year old boy, as he was leaving, shouted that he was going to be back again, with a gun of his own, because "nobody points a gun at me!" Again, ridiculous irony, he only left because one of his friends convinced him to do so. His friend reminded him that "it's not worth going back to prison!" In fact, prison was the least of his worries, wouldn't you say?

 

[briandg]

For another story, I am member of a board of cigar smokers. One of them came on with a long story about how a fedx truck stopped at his house, a fed x man came to the door with a fed x box that he had ordered, and rang the bell. He grabbed his .44 magnum, stuck it in his front pocket, and brandished it for the fedx man when he opened the door. His justification for it was the bogus news story that UPS was selling uniforms online to anyone who bought them (BS. The fact is that they were selling jackets for the NASCAR team sponsored by ups.)

His excuse for this was that the truck, uniform, and package may have been stolen, and the guy was just following the routes, and delivered his package to him as scheduled because it was on the box address.

This guy was serious. He was expecting a package, and when the package was delivered, he approached the situation as being an insanely unlikely situation of a criminal taking control of the driver, his uniform, his car, and the boxes with addresses, only to go from house to house killing and robbing the people as he delivered the merchandise.

I bluntly told him that he was borderline nuts, probably an idiot, and that he was flirting with disaster. I told him that he needed professional help with whatever mental illness he was experiencing. I told him that there was, on the surface, no reason at all to believe that his scenario was even remotely likely.

While it is a good idea to go to the door with a weapon at all times, opening the door brandishing a weapon when no obvious threat whatsoever is presented is just stupid. Creating unlikely scenarios in the mind is dangerous, as acting on the crazy as a bedbug ideas is too easy to do in a moment of panic.

here's a realistic scenario for a paranoid nutcase like him.

Fedx driver has worked all day in 110 degree heat indexes. He's irritated, maybe even angry. He's carrying a 70 pound drill press. Losing sight of his instructions, instead of putting the thing on the ground when goofball pops the door open before he even reaches the porch, he does goofball a favor, and pushes past him to put the box down inside the door.

Is goofball so wrapped up in his crazy, paranoid delusions that he draws and empties the cylinder of all rounds into fedx, because the scary, dangerous delivery man tried to do him a favor, and forgot the rules of delivering packages?

It scared the hell out of me to know that people that crazy were ordering pizzas, and being visited by teenaged mormon missionaries.

This is a prime example of overreacting.

 

[TimSr]

Opening the door and brandishing a weapon when its a police officer knocking might not end well.

 

[OldMarksman]

Post by TmSr: Opening the door and brandishing a weapon when its a police officer knocking might not end well.

Same thing applies no matter who is there.

But according to the OP, he did not do that.

....I opened the front door with my left foot and shoulder behind it at about 45 degrees and the 642 in my right hand behind my back. I kept my body weight behind me and the gun behind my back while I curtly answered his questions...

Base on that description, he did not threaten anyone.

But the idea that he had effectively, or even partially, mitigated the risk of being harmed by a violent criminal actor, had the caller turned out to have been one, does not hold water.

There are much better ways to go about it, as indicated in the link I posted above.

and today's technology gives us access to still more. If you take the time to plan ahead, you can put in place affordable items that well permit you to scan the outside with your smartphone....

...wiithout going to the door, and without putting yourself at risk by standing in front of the door.

 

[Buzzcook]

In the end it was just a small, 20 something political volunteer. In retrospect I kind of have to admire the courage that it must take to knock on strangers doors in the middle of nowhere. I never brandished, but did I overreact?

In what twisted society must it take courage for a kid to knock on doors and hand out political pamphlets?

In this specific case the OP over reacted.

 

[cc-hangfire]

Since you (OP) know your neighborhood best, you did not over-react.

Every answer above can be correct. I live in a neighborhood surrounded by a rural area with good neighbors and kids from pre-school thru college. And I'm in one of the most gun friendly states. Any "bad guy" knows that there are firearms in practically home - at least hunting long guns.

I'm not fooling myself into thinking that my household is immune from crime or violence, and there have been sporadic burglaries in the neighborhood. But how I answer the door depends on time of day or night, weather conditions (a door knock in bad weather is 99% likely someone needing help and 1% chance of big trouble), the car in the driveway, who I see through the window, etc. The most frequent knocks recently are from the 2 little girls living next door looking for their kitten or just wanting to visit.

What's in my pocket or on my belt or behind the door depends on those risk factors above. I remain aware and cautious, but I trust in God more than anything else on this earth and I'm not gonna be "that crazy old guy who always answers the door with a gun in his hand". Know your situation, and behave accordingly.

 

[briandg]

I feel that way to, to a certain extent. Don't live your life as a paranoid, crazed always on guard adrenaline choked and unhappy man. Most people are capable of assessing a threat and engaging that threat rationally. (I don't know, it's possible that only a few percent can...)

The problem is that at any second, even in the best circumstances, your life can turn around. Think about the knockout game.

In september, I was taking a bag of litter out to the alley, where our trash is kept. We live in a century old neighborhood that unfortunately, among the century old mansions, has a few century old dumps. There have been a lot of property crimes recently. There have been some physical crimes, including a murder less than a year ago a few blocks away.

I had carried my handgun upstairs earlier and left it on my desk, and wondered whether I needed to go get it just to go out and dump a bag of cat excrement. I reminded myself that life is all about random events. There honestly could be trouble, walking out with the trash at 11:30 pm.

THERE WAS TROUBLE.

I found a punk wandering through my neighbor's unfenced back yard, eyeing his cars, and I (non-aggressively) questioned him as to why he was there (he was looking for a place to take a leak) and then pointed out that the convenience store a few blocks away had a restroom.

He was apparently staying less than 1/2 block away. I had gotten on my phone to 911 to report a prowler. Before I was even through identifying myself to the dispatcher, he came back with another. The situation got really bad. The entire story wound up with four of them there, ended in less than 5 minutes, and ended with him threatening to come back with a gun. The police got there just as they had turned down the street and disappeared.

You can never let your guard down.

And by the way, don't even start that I shouldn't have told the little goon to leave. I was not going to tolerate a person smashing my friend and neighbor's vehicle to look for loot. I was armed, and the risk looked acceptable. As a nation, as a people, we have to take a stand against crime, and if that means telling a punk to get away from a neighbor's window, that is what we have to do. The fact that sometimes it ends badly is just a damned shame, and that is something that we as an individual have to face, as a consequence of doing the right thing.

 

[Mainah]

OP here, didn't expect this thread to rise from the dead like a.... never mind. Anyway, I'm grateful for all the feedback. I initially posted because I was worried that I overreacted. The responses here helped me accept my initial feelings that I had not.

But I also learned that I reacted the wrong way in this situation. A couple of years ago a storm created some problems with our landline phone. I called 911 and told the responder that I was just testing the phone line. Nonetheless a uniformed deputy showed up at the front door awhile later. After he rang the bell I looked out the window and saw his cruiser in the driveway and him in full uniform at the front door. Then I opened the door and he was able to confirm the nature of my call.

So I'm not reacting like this to every unexpected visitor. What I realized here in this thread was that if I have doubts about who is at the door I can just not answer the door. And that if I have doubts about the guy at the front door my first priority should be making sure I know what's going on at every other potential entry point.

 

[OldMarksman]

I do not think it at all inappropriate to be wary. But I understand well that a gun in hand provides absolutely no ballistic protection whatsoever, and my foot against the door is unlikely to prevent entry by a determined intruder.. Should I ever have to resort to deadly force, God forbid, it will be from the safest position I can find.

I carry indoors, and when I go outside I am armed.

But I most certainly would never, ever, even consider "telling a punk to get away from a neighbor's window". I have absolutely no legal authority to do that. The landowner or lessee can ask a trespasser to depart, but in most jurisdictions, his only lawful recourse is to call the police.

I would certainly not hesitate to call 911, but I would do so from a position of safety and concealment. One might call that a "Zimmerman lesson learned."

Back to the stranger at the door issue. I am actively considering electronic means for determining who is there.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

And by the way, don't even start that I shouldn't have told the little goon to leave. I was not going to tolerate a person smashing my friend and neighbor's vehicle to look for loot. I was armed, and the risk looked acceptable.

The risk:

In TX, your gun is useless in this situation. You could not use it to stop the vandalism as it is not your property. You might try to physically intervene but check the law and that. So you would have to lose the physical interaction in a manner such that you have faced grievous bodily harm.

That's a great plan.

If the interaction goes awry, you will be faced with significant legal bills. Is that a risk to you? Over the neighbors car?

We had a shooting in a similar situation where the shooter was charged. It was luck on his part that he could make the case that he was at risk of grievous physical harm and there was a witness. The shooter had been told by dispatch that he shouldn't go out but he proclaimed his warrior blood lust.
Without the witness - he would have been sunk.

Now it is very nice to posture how you would win the fight or scare away the BG. While you were jawing, you could have simply been shot. You lucked out by not interacting with a real threat.

Any competent firearms training course would discourage posturing, and we will tell those who say that they will do this or that as they won't tolerate this or that when the proposed action has risk and legal problems. There are other forums to posture.

 

[briandg]

This isn't posturing.

I don't give half a damn about the legal or other ramifications. I don't know of any other way to say it. I did what I felt was necessary. I will always do whatever seems necessary. When it comes again, as it will, I will also do what I think is necessary, take whatever risks seem reasonable. I didn't go out to pick a fight. I did nothing to provoke him to attack me. In the following five minutes, I could have done all sorts of stupid things, like chasing them down the street, trading insults, picking fights, or as you say, "Jawing" at him, but no. In fact, as they came back to "get me" I stayed behind a bush and waited for the police. They came to me, threatened me, and eventually (MAYBE) threatened to kill me.

So far as I am aware of, asking a person why he is prowling in a neighbor's yard is not a provocation. reminding him that there is a store down the road is not provocation. If he had attacked me it would have been unprovoked. Our state has laws concerning that. There we have it. I may have died, gone to jail, or whatever. When his partner tried to attack me, it was unprovoked.

You have no idea what happened. Not the smallest clue. You don't know me, the situation, nothing. You compared my situation to a completely unrelated case in texas. (I know about that case.) Why do you feel a need to criticize my actions? You're not trying to teach me, or you wouldn't be using that condescending and almost insulting language.

 

[dayman]

the 20+ year old goon who stood at least 3 feet taller than me

So, are you under 4 feet tall, or do you think he was over 7 feet tall?

People want to look smart. They will impart "wisdom" all day long. Sometimes, that wisdom is absolute horse leavings.

So very true.

How did we move from discussing answering the door with a concealed gun to waving a gun around at people in the neighbors lawn?

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by briandg: I don't give half a damn about the legal or other ramifications. I don't know of any other way to say it.

Really? About potential investigations? About charges? Lawsuits? Legal defense costs? About the risk of losing in courts?

About being hospitalized at your own expense? About being crippled? Killed?

About I did what I felt was necessary.

Necessary to accomplish what?

I didn't go out to pick a fight. I did nothing to provoke him to attack me.

To a reasonable man, that might appear true. But they did come back to "get" you. What brought that about?

In fact, as they came back to "get me" I stayed behind a bush and waited for the police.

Kinda like Zimmerman?

Best to lay low first and call the police without being seen.

They came to me, threatened me, and eventually (MAYBE) threatened to kill me.

That could have ben avoided by not having confronted the man in the first place.

So far as I am aware of, asking a person why he is prowling in a neighbor's yard is not a provocation. reminding him that there is a store down the road is not provocation.

I tend to agree. Had a complete audio recording been available, and had the recording supported your belief that you had not provoked the reaction in any way that would have been helpful.

BUT: you spoke of "telling a punk to get away from a neighbor's window". You do not have a right to do that,period, and the "reasonable people" who would judge your actions and comments may well consider them to have been provocative.

And with that, and without a recording that would prove otherwise, and with their word against yours, you were in a situation that could have gotten much worse.

I may have died, gone to jail, or whatever.

Good that you understand that.

When his partner tried to attack me, it was unprovoked.

Of course that's how you see it. But had you ended up defending yourself, your actions leading up to that confrontation, as indicated by testimony and piecemeal evidence available after the fact, could well have harmed a defense of justification irreparably,

You have no idea what happened. Not the smallest clue.

We have the story as you have related it here.

You don't know me, the situation, nothing.

We can discern some things from your statements:

And by the way, don't even start that I shouldn't have told the little goon to leave. I was not going to tolerate a person smashing my friend and neighbor's vehicle to look for loot. I was armed, and the risk looked acceptable. As a nation, as a people, we have to take a stand against crime, and if that means telling a punk to get away from a neighbor's window, that is what we have to do.

From that, we can reasonably conclude that you may be lacking in knowledge about use of force law.

And from your statement about having stood behind a bush while talking on your cell phone, it appears that you might need to reconsider your tactics.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At TFL, we do give a damn about legal ramifications.

Thus, we do not promote those who feel that they don't have to.

Thus, closed as the reasonable commentary should be a strong counterweight to those who fail to understand the complexities of using lethal force.