Did I handle this correctly?
- Thread starter ncgsdguy
- Start date
I think the best course of action would have been to leave the area immediately upon noticing the five losers.
There is a good chance that at least one of them, and possibly all of them, also had a firearm.
Besides, why stay?
The fishing trip is over at this point.
I don't think I could stay and enjoy myself with five drunk punks creeping around.
I would worry that they might park down the road and sneak back to attack me, or go and get their own guns, or go and get some more friends, or hide and then follow me home.
You never know.
Personally, I never hike, camp, climb, or fish alone...night or day.
It's just too dangerous for many reasons.
There is a good chance that at least one of them, and possibly all of them, also had a firearm.
Besides, why stay?
The fishing trip is over at this point.
I don't think I could stay and enjoy myself with five drunk punks creeping around.
I would worry that they might park down the road and sneak back to attack me, or go and get their own guns, or go and get some more friends, or hide and then follow me home.
You never know.
Personally, I never hike, camp, climb, or fish alone...night or day.
It's just too dangerous for many reasons.
well, maybe I'm just hardheaded, but I refuse to let druggie scum ruin my outing, I always have an escape route and I always have my senses on alert, criminals in my opinion have had so many "breaks" they think that they can run people away like scared rabbits and that;s why they have this attitude as they had with me, until I didn't back down, I just think that's part of the reason crime in America is so rampant...people don't fight back......and I don't give warning shots, maybe just a wounding shot...but no warning other than verbal
I agree with you in spirit...
But you have to choose your battles carefully.
There is simply no way that this could have turned in to a fun outing in my opinion.
Call me crazy, but when I go fishing I like to relax and enjoy myself...not constantly be looking over my shoulder and constantly checking to see if my car is being vandalized.
I don't think that having a fun fishing trip would be possible in this situation.
When the group threw the bottle and advanced within 21 feet I would have opened fire. I would not have unleashed the dog, holding onto the dog would have made unsteady hands more unsteady, I would not have released the dog, no reason to put him in the line of fire, and I would not have shot over their heads, no telling where stray bullets will land...
From the original post, it would seem that the bottle was thrown from before they came within even 20 YARDS of him.
He only drew his pistol when they advance to 20 YARDS away (60 feet).
I think he probably should have gotten back in his car immediately, before they even got to 20 yards, and left the area.
I have no idea if what you did is legal, but in my book, it was plain smart.
Better pull out the gun and not need id, than to end up as a statistic of "dumb guy getting injured (or worse). Closer inspection at the morgue revealed that he had a gun."
Well done
A: defused the situation
B: Give a clear message that muzzle beats muscle.
C: survived to tell the tale and walk away.
Better pull out the gun and not need id, than to end up as a statistic of "dumb guy getting injured (or worse). Closer inspection at the morgue revealed that he had a gun."
Well done
A: defused the situation
B: Give a clear message that muzzle beats muscle.
C: survived to tell the tale and walk away.
Right or wrong, it obviously worked out for the best.
You all may want to keep in mind that some states REQUIRE you to take any possible opportunity to flee a situation such as this. Others allow you to stand your ground.
I think you should be allowed to stand your ground, as the scum that do things like this are just fueled by a person that runs. It pumps them up and then they seek out another victim. I'd have to bet that the guys you rant into that night didn't look to start any more trouble that night, and may think a lot more before they ever do again.
You all may want to keep in mind that some states REQUIRE you to take any possible opportunity to flee a situation such as this. Others allow you to stand your ground.
I think you should be allowed to stand your ground, as the scum that do things like this are just fueled by a person that runs. It pumps them up and then they seek out another victim. I'd have to bet that the guys you rant into that night didn't look to start any more trouble that night, and may think a lot more before they ever do again.
The OP has his dog and some fishing equiptment out and you guys expect him to get in the car and leave. Leave the dog? How about the equiptment? How far were they away when the need to flee was realized?????30 maybe 40 yards. Ever see what happens to fine motor skills when Freddy Kruger is bull rushing you? Its virtually impossible for the victim to even get the key into the ignition.
IMO the OP did the right thing.
IMO the OP did the right thing.
I doubt it.
Yes, flee.
Untie the dog, or cut the leash with your pocketknife, put the dog in the car, and leave the area immediately.
You gear can be replaced...your life cannot.
Have you ever seen a drunk guy run 30 yards?
I think he had time to get the dog in the car and leave the area.
And he could have later called the cops and went back with them to recover his gear.
This is hollywood movie BS.
If you can't get your key in the ignition of your car under pressure, then a pistol aint gonna do you any good either!
The bottom line is he was lucky that they did not have pistols of their own and start shooting at him and his dog.
Thanks for the responses, I'm also glad it turned out like it did, that was the closest I have ever come to shooting a target without actually shooting, I was aiming center mass on the closest guy....thankfully they all backed off, what kept running through my head was a LEO friend of mine who shot a guy who was zoned out on Crystal Meth, and attacking him with a pitch fork, he shot the guy 5 times before the guy dropped, but I carry 2 extra 12 round mags for a total of 36 rounds, as far as me jumping in the car and leaving, I couldn't have done so, my dog was on the bumper, all my gear, lanterns, poles cooler etc was on the ground behind my car.....just glad it didn't go defcon1...and for the record, I am ex military and practice shooting weekly, if theres one thing I have taught myself is to stay calm and focused
David Armstrong
Moderator
Yes, I expect him to leave. Untie the dog, or let the dog run along behind you at 15 MPH or so for a while. It won't hurt him. As for the equipment---for the amount of money you will spend on legal costs for shooting somebody you can buy a whole lot of really nice fishing equipment. And if you can't control your skills enough to get the car started you probably aren't going to have enough control to do much good with that gun.
Not any more than you are already. Way too many folks around here seem to think that shooting first is the answer to these problems. It isn't. It is usually the last resort and the least favorable of the options that can be selected.
ncgsdguy, . . . FWIW, . . . I think you did darn good, all things considered.
Very few of us are ready at all times to recognize a danger that requires flight, . . . you had your dog to consider, . . . and most of all: you did not shoot any of them.
David Armstrong is very much correct when he says shooting is: "usually the last resort and the least favorable of the options that can be selected."
Being accosted by those 5, . . . as you were, . . . I may not have done as well, . . . but one thing for sure, . . . I would not have been there by myself. Any time I am out like that after dark, . . . I have a buddy other than John Browning with me.
May God bless,
Dwight
Very few of us are ready at all times to recognize a danger that requires flight, . . . you had your dog to consider, . . . and most of all: you did not shoot any of them.
David Armstrong is very much correct when he says shooting is: "usually the last resort and the least favorable of the options that can be selected."
Being accosted by those 5, . . . as you were, . . . I may not have done as well, . . . but one thing for sure, . . . I would not have been there by myself. Any time I am out like that after dark, . . . I have a buddy other than John Browning with me.
May God bless,
Dwight
From threegun:
I carry a Spyderco Pacific Salt...
I can draw it and cut the leash in less time than you can take ten steps!
And there's no way a drunk guy is gonna cover twenty yards in less time than you can pull a knife and cut a leash.
And once the leash is cut, then the drunk has not only a man to deal with, but a 100 lbs dog to deal with!
No matter what the dog was definitely better off cut free or inside the car.
BS!
I carry a Spyderco Pacific Salt...
I can draw it and cut the leash in less time than you can take ten steps!
And there's no way a drunk guy is gonna cover twenty yards in less time than you can pull a knife and cut a leash.
And once the leash is cut, then the drunk has not only a man to deal with, but a 100 lbs dog to deal with!
No matter what the dog was definitely better off cut free or inside the car.
It really depends on the state you live in. Some states favor the safety and rights of their law abiding citizens, while others seem to, well, you know. You're allowed to carry in your state for a reason...to protect yourself, your family, and your property (at least in TX). The fact that you're allowed to carry answers, at least in part, some of the appropriatness of your response.
First, I don't think you were in error in pulling your gun.
I probably would've given a verbal warning like you did. When they kept advancing, I would've followed with a warning shot in the ground, rather than pointing at them. If they still kept advancing (although I doubt they would), you would've been justified in dropping one or all of them.
Being drunk and stupid are neither excuses for attacking someone nor a defence for getting shot for attacking.
Depending on your dog's temperment, it might also have proven useful to cut his leash and let him chase them back to their car, biting them in their drunk asses along the way, although he could've been injured by this.
First, I don't think you were in error in pulling your gun.
I probably would've given a verbal warning like you did. When they kept advancing, I would've followed with a warning shot in the ground, rather than pointing at them. If they still kept advancing (although I doubt they would), you would've been justified in dropping one or all of them.
Being drunk and stupid are neither excuses for attacking someone nor a defence for getting shot for attacking.
Depending on your dog's temperment, it might also have proven useful to cut his leash and let him chase them back to their car, biting them in their drunk asses along the way, although he could've been injured by this.
Rommel (my dog) will attack if given the order, or if he is threatened or my safety is an issue, but all this was happening so fast, I was trying to keep and eye on the 5 of them, and make sure nobody flanked me, I was prepared to doubletap the closet guy...and if the rest kept coming empty the mag, I was taught to shoot 2 to the heart one to the head if my possible demise was probable....just glad it stopped where it did. I did go out and buy new mags though.....just in case I need more than 3
ncgsdguy,
First, good job of handling the situation. No one got hurt, everyone got to go home later. Happy ending.
"Keyboard Quarterbacking" comments....
1. If my dog is growling and barking at them, he's giving warnings of his own. I'd probably untie him when the crowd started approaching for two reasons. First is that dogs (especially GSDs, Rotties and Dobermans) scare people if they can get loose --and I'll remind them that if they hurt my dog, I hurt them worse. If they hurt me, there's no one to call the dog off. Second is that if I have to retreat, I can (hopefully) get the dog into the car easier.
2. I'd never leave my dog to the whims of 5 drunk jerks.
3. Drive off with dog leashed to bumper? Not hardly. I know how much vet bills can be if a dog gets hurt.
4. At 20 yards a group of "intoxicated' men start throwing bottles. At that distance, if they charge with the intent to assault me, they can cover the 20 yards in about 8-12 seconds. If I'm already trying to get the dog into the car, I might succeed before they get me. (remember, he'll be resisting in order to bark and growl at them.)
5. I'm all for the use of a "strategic retreat" when necessary. In this case, it's not necessary or even workable. If you look like you're going to run it will only encourage these losers to put the rush on you. Even if you look like you're just backing away to get to the car this can happen (I've seen it any number of times at a local cowboy bar parking lot). When this happens, the group can be terribly abusive to someone's hide.
ncgsdguy -- That's a fine looking German Shepard! Unless he's trained around gunfire (i.e. a shutzenhund) or protection trained, he's probably better used as a deterrent rather than letting him go chew on someone. I'd not mess with someone who has a dog like that even if they're unarmed!
First, good job of handling the situation. No one got hurt, everyone got to go home later. Happy ending.
"Keyboard Quarterbacking" comments....
1. If my dog is growling and barking at them, he's giving warnings of his own. I'd probably untie him when the crowd started approaching for two reasons. First is that dogs (especially GSDs, Rotties and Dobermans) scare people if they can get loose --and I'll remind them that if they hurt my dog, I hurt them worse. If they hurt me, there's no one to call the dog off. Second is that if I have to retreat, I can (hopefully) get the dog into the car easier.
2. I'd never leave my dog to the whims of 5 drunk jerks.
3. Drive off with dog leashed to bumper? Not hardly. I know how much vet bills can be if a dog gets hurt.
4. At 20 yards a group of "intoxicated' men start throwing bottles. At that distance, if they charge with the intent to assault me, they can cover the 20 yards in about 8-12 seconds. If I'm already trying to get the dog into the car, I might succeed before they get me. (remember, he'll be resisting in order to bark and growl at them.)
5. I'm all for the use of a "strategic retreat" when necessary. In this case, it's not necessary or even workable. If you look like you're going to run it will only encourage these losers to put the rush on you. Even if you look like you're just backing away to get to the car this can happen (I've seen it any number of times at a local cowboy bar parking lot). When this happens, the group can be terribly abusive to someone's hide.
ncgsdguy -- That's a fine looking German Shepard! Unless he's trained around gunfire (i.e. a shutzenhund) or protection trained, he's probably better used as a deterrent rather than letting him go chew on someone. I'd not mess with someone who has a dog like that even if they're unarmed!