This is what happened to me 2 months ago-----I went to a local lake to go cat fishing, it was around 9pm, I had my German Shepherd and my Springfield XD40 with me as usual, well this lake is in the boonies, I pull into the parking lot, not seeing any cars I cut my bright lights on and proceeded to park near the boat ramp to fish from the piers, as I am getting my fishing poles and lanterns etc out of my trunk, my dog starts to give a low growl, I then see a group of 5 guys coming towards me, they were cursing me saying I was a dumbass for coming in there with bright lights on, I said sorry, didnt see anyone...they then let the F bombs fly and one of them threw a beer bottle at me, they are approaching me the whole time, at approx 20 yards I draw my weapon and keep it hidden by my side, my dog is tied to the bumper and is snarling mad....they kept coming towards me....all were very drunk and I suspect on drugs as well..I was getting a bit nervous by this time and thinking to myself, these guys are going to kill me, well when they got within 20 feet I leveled my gun at them, cut the taclight on thats on the rail of my XD and shouted...STOP...I am armed and have a dog, if you come any closer I will release my dog and open fire on you....this brought a torrent of F you's and kiss my a**...but they did stop cold in their tracks once they saw the pistol and my 100lbs German Shepherd...they kept cursing as they turned and walked back to their car that was backed into the woods, then they spun out and left, now if they had kept coming and threatening me, would I have been justified in shooting?...I hope to God I never have to do that, but I was ready that night and would have shot if they came any closer....sorry for the long story, but just wanted to tell the whole story
Did I handle this correctly?
- Thread starter ncgsdguy
- Start date
The above is a good question...you are near your car, probably have time just to get out of dodge and run. XD is for absolute last resort. If you got in your car and they were starting to try to get you out, then I'd say do the XD. They didn't have any deadly weapons that you could see, so kinda sketchy on what exactly they would do.
mikejonestkd
New member
Glad to hear that you are ok.
My first choice would have been to get back in the car asap and get out of Dodge City. Waiting for them to get closer as they continue to make threatening comments about you was an error, armed or not.
A firearm is an absolute last resort, you had a window of opportunity to get out when it was clear that they were hostile and you chose to stay. Don't let your firearm embolden you in the future.
My first choice would have been to get back in the car asap and get out of Dodge City. Waiting for them to get closer as they continue to make threatening comments about you was an error, armed or not.
A firearm is an absolute last resort, you had a window of opportunity to get out when it was clear that they were hostile and you chose to stay. Don't let your firearm embolden you in the future.
Hallucinator
New member
I would have called the cops and reported it. Otherwise, these guys could go to the cops and say you pulled a gun on them.
Otherwise, you did what I would have done.
Otherwise, you did what I would have done.
I'm surprised I haven't been attacked (and possibly rightfully) as being irresponsible by saying that this is the intent of a CCW permit, as it should be the LAST option. I agree that getting out of there would be the best option. I should have read it more thoroughly, noting the distances you were at. All in all, it's hard to tell if it was the right thing to do, and if it was what any of us would've done, but you're alive to tell about it, and so are they.
I guess it really, as always, depends on the exact situation.
I guess it really, as always, depends on the exact situation.
DesertDawg
New member
HMM! If you really think about it, you probably should have un-tied your dog and held onto its leash FIRST. Having the dog tied to the bumper of your vehicle sort of "hampered" you from making a hasty get-away.
I may get "bashed" for saying this, but....I think that, if those turds hadn't backed down, you could have justified firing a "warning shot" into the ground. Sure, having a weapon doesn't always mean that you'll be safe, but in weighing the options....i.e., drawing down on the jerks and possibly getting into a shooting of one or more of them VS firing a "warning shot" to get their attention....you SHOULD be able understand where I'm coming from!
Did you happen to report the incident to the police? You could have carefully picked up the beer bottle (or fragments) that had been thrown at you, and gently place it into a paper bag....as evidence of their "hostility" toward you! On the other hand, I doubt if any of those dirtbags would even THINK of reporting the incident!
I may get "bashed" for saying this, but....I think that, if those turds hadn't backed down, you could have justified firing a "warning shot" into the ground. Sure, having a weapon doesn't always mean that you'll be safe, but in weighing the options....i.e., drawing down on the jerks and possibly getting into a shooting of one or more of them VS firing a "warning shot" to get their attention....you SHOULD be able understand where I'm coming from!
Did you happen to report the incident to the police? You could have carefully picked up the beer bottle (or fragments) that had been thrown at you, and gently place it into a paper bag....as evidence of their "hostility" toward you! On the other hand, I doubt if any of those dirtbags would even THINK of reporting the incident!
Spade Cooley
Moderator
I would have dropped to one knee and put a few rounds just over their heads to show them I would resist. Those slime balls are not going to go to the police that night. Then I would go to the police and make my report and inflate it a little. You know they are going to do the same if they decide to go the next day. I might have also let the dog take a bite out of them.
It's easy to "keyboard quarterback" and difficult to think fast when you are actually right on the spot with adrenaline rushing and so forth.
It sounds like you handled an unexpected situation fairly well for needing to make snap decisions. You got the best possible outcome which is to say that everyone got to go home uninjured and no shots were fired.
Now that you have the luxury of sitting back and reviewing you can nitpick and review the scenairo and see what you might have done differently but use that as a learning tool for the future and don't beat yourself up too much on how the past was handled.
Having said that.
Vacating the area ASAP would have been the best choice if you could have managed it but let's assume for a moment that you couldn't drive off (because they were blocking you in or because the dog was tied to the bumper or whatever).
Now we're talking about attempting to deter them. Which (fortunately) worked. If it hadn't then we're on to "in fear of grave personal harm" which would require some justification later. Usually this is considered via the terms of Means, Motive, and Opportunity.
5 on one, throwing stuff at you, certainly qualifies as having the means to cause you grave personal harm.
Drunk, pissed, aggressive behavior, there seems to have been motive.
In range and closing on you means that they had the opportunity to harm you.
Looks like you'd have had a pretty solid case for a self-defense action.
It sounds like you handled an unexpected situation fairly well for needing to make snap decisions. You got the best possible outcome which is to say that everyone got to go home uninjured and no shots were fired.
Now that you have the luxury of sitting back and reviewing you can nitpick and review the scenairo and see what you might have done differently but use that as a learning tool for the future and don't beat yourself up too much on how the past was handled.
Having said that.
Vacating the area ASAP would have been the best choice if you could have managed it but let's assume for a moment that you couldn't drive off (because they were blocking you in or because the dog was tied to the bumper or whatever).
Now we're talking about attempting to deter them. Which (fortunately) worked. If it hadn't then we're on to "in fear of grave personal harm" which would require some justification later. Usually this is considered via the terms of Means, Motive, and Opportunity.
5 on one, throwing stuff at you, certainly qualifies as having the means to cause you grave personal harm.
Drunk, pissed, aggressive behavior, there seems to have been motive.
In range and closing on you means that they had the opportunity to harm you.
Looks like you'd have had a pretty solid case for a self-defense action.
tuckerdog1
New member
Warning shots at the ground, or in the air...Bad idea.
Agree with Hallucinator, since a gun was drawn, it's better to be the 1st to make the call to the cops.
Tuckerdog1
Agree with Hallucinator, since a gun was drawn, it's better to be the 1st to make the call to the cops.
Tuckerdog1
Warning shots waste ammo. In a 5 on 1, I'd worry about that. Not to sound like a nutty survivalist, but one thing I can say for sure; IF you want to produce that "be scared of this" effect, a 12 ga pump action seems to produce it a lot better than a handgun. I used to cruise to faraway locations on my sailboat. You sometimes didn't know if the locals were being friendly or scoping you out, so I would often sit on the stern and oil my 12 ga. When they'd pass by I'd give a nice friendly wave, then rack the pump. Always produced the intended look.
stephen426
New member
I think DesertDawg got it right... Untie the dog first. 100 lbs. of german shepard is pretty intimidating. Tied to a bumper, its useless (unless it can chew through what you tied it up with in time to save your butt! 
)
I don't know about the whole legality of your actions, but mine would probably have been the same if I was in your shoes. Five on one is potentially deadly force in anybody's eyes (especially of they are drunk and/or high). They started the hostilities by throwing the beer bottle at you. This is considered a missle and could be classified with assault. (Remember the whole McMissle thing with the lady throwing the cup of ice).
The best thing to do would have been to leave if you could have done so safely. You would have to untie your dog and get him loaded into the car first. The problem is you would be occupied and not fully able to track your threats. Twenty yards can be covered fairly quickly. Your car is not a safe place by any means since they can break your windows and go at you. All in all, I think you handled it fairly well. I'm glad nothing worse happened either.
)I don't know about the whole legality of your actions, but mine would probably have been the same if I was in your shoes. Five on one is potentially deadly force in anybody's eyes (especially of they are drunk and/or high). They started the hostilities by throwing the beer bottle at you. This is considered a missle and could be classified with assault. (Remember the whole McMissle thing with the lady throwing the cup of ice).
The best thing to do would have been to leave if you could have done so safely. You would have to untie your dog and get him loaded into the car first. The problem is you would be occupied and not fully able to track your threats. Twenty yards can be covered fairly quickly. Your car is not a safe place by any means since they can break your windows and go at you. All in all, I think you handled it fairly well. I'm glad nothing worse happened either.
My reaction would've been the same.
They brought the agression on to you. Seems like they were really just trying to pick a fight, cause IMHO being blinded by headlights is a lame reason to start this fight. So, for all you know you had just stumbled across a hornet's nest.
I think the key here is how far along you were into your unpacking of your supplies. I'm all about running for the hills in this case: 5-1, in the middle of the sticks with no back up, BG's possibly armed with more than bottles, etc. etc. This case is Bad News Bears all around. According to your first post, you've already begun unpacking, so you have equipment all around you. I think turning your back and starting to pack up would've been the biggest mistake of all. That would've allowed these jerks to come right up on you. By the time you finished packing, they could've surrounded you, overwhelmed you, and begun playing the "Deliverence" music while they have a tailgate party from the truck that was formerly yours.
In most cases, when it comes to Fight vs. Flight, I prefer the Flight option. If I don't need to take a life, I really don't want to. These were just some drunks who obviously had a little too much and were looking to get to scrapin'. However, for this senario, out in the middle of nowhere with no real running option, Fight would've presented as the only option. Drunk or not, these humans are still responsible for their actions, and must accept the consequences. If you've come up on me, and cornered me here with no time to flee, my reaction would've been the same.
They brought the agression on to you. Seems like they were really just trying to pick a fight, cause IMHO being blinded by headlights is a lame reason to start this fight. So, for all you know you had just stumbled across a hornet's nest.
I think the key here is how far along you were into your unpacking of your supplies. I'm all about running for the hills in this case: 5-1, in the middle of the sticks with no back up, BG's possibly armed with more than bottles, etc. etc. This case is Bad News Bears all around. According to your first post, you've already begun unpacking, so you have equipment all around you. I think turning your back and starting to pack up would've been the biggest mistake of all. That would've allowed these jerks to come right up on you. By the time you finished packing, they could've surrounded you, overwhelmed you, and begun playing the "Deliverence" music while they have a tailgate party from the truck that was formerly yours.
In most cases, when it comes to Fight vs. Flight, I prefer the Flight option. If I don't need to take a life, I really don't want to. These were just some drunks who obviously had a little too much and were looking to get to scrapin'. However, for this senario, out in the middle of nowhere with no real running option, Fight would've presented as the only option. Drunk or not, these humans are still responsible for their actions, and must accept the consequences. If you've come up on me, and cornered me here with no time to flee, my reaction would've been the same.
WhiteFeather93
New member
This is a hard one to call...
First and most foremost I am glad to hear you are ok and in good health.I applaud you for sharing. IMHO I think you did what anyone would have, not more than you had to and not less. Maybe you could have fled. Maybe they would have chased you. More likely than not they would have. You didn't mention if you had a phone on you. I'm not going assume so because I on occasion forget the phone and some of the remote places I go I don't get service anyway. But if you could have done one more thing it would have been to get the license plat # and direction of travel. Then unfortunetly you are going to have to leave and find a phone to contact the proper authorities. That is the only thing that comes to mind. Good job in a tight spot.
First and most foremost I am glad to hear you are ok and in good health.I applaud you for sharing. IMHO I think you did what anyone would have, not more than you had to and not less. Maybe you could have fled. Maybe they would have chased you. More likely than not they would have. You didn't mention if you had a phone on you. I'm not going assume so because I on occasion forget the phone and some of the remote places I go I don't get service anyway. But if you could have done one more thing it would have been to get the license plat # and direction of travel. Then unfortunetly you are going to have to leave and find a phone to contact the proper authorities. That is the only thing that comes to mind. Good job in a tight spot.
I agree its always best to get away if you can. However I think that would have been difficult in this situation.
Untying a pissed off 100lb dog and getting him into a vehicle is no simple task (I have a rottie). Its even harder when you are scared and wanting to keep your eyes on a group of 5 jerks approaching you while yelling insults/threats.
Assuming you did everything the way you described (not swearing back at them or anything), you should just be happy you diffused it and nobody got hurt.
+1 on filing a police report.
Untying a pissed off 100lb dog and getting him into a vehicle is no simple task (I have a rottie). Its even harder when you are scared and wanting to keep your eyes on a group of 5 jerks approaching you while yelling insults/threats.
Assuming you did everything the way you described (not swearing back at them or anything), you should just be happy you diffused it and nobody got hurt.
+1 on filing a police report.
rainynight65
New member
I agree with some of the opinions here - I would have taken the fastest way out. What were the odds that at least one of those five had a gun with him? I haven't had many encounters with violence and violent people, but if there is one thing I have learned, it is that people under the influence of alcohol or narcotics are completely unpredictable. To be blunt, I think you are lucky to have left that encounter without suffering bodily harm. And I am not sure if the gun or the dog was the stronger deterrent.
stephen426
New member
jfrey123 said:
While I agree with you and would have done the same as the original poster, not leaving because you need to pack you gear (or your dog for that matter) becomes protecting property with deadly force. Now with many states allowing people to defend themselves without fleeing, the actions would be appropriate legally.
We are probably analyzing this situation based on the out come. What if the guys had kept coming? What if the original poster actually opened fire and shot or killed one of the guys (heck, maybe even all of the guys). Being a responsible person, the original poster would most probably call the police immediately. How would it look to the police if the other 4 guys made up some story about you attacking them unprovoked? I'm sure it would be even worse if all 5 guys were shot. Would our actions have been any different? Would our fishing gear (or even our dog) be worth the life (or lives) of one (or more) of those scumbags? Would it be worth the hassle to possible get arrested, find a good defense lawyer (blow a whole bunch of money or even your whole life savings), or deal with having a criminal record?
Don't get me wrong, if it is truely life or death, you do what you have to do. If you stick around so you don't leave fishing gear or your dog, then things get dicey. Sorry to complicate things.
Hello all, thanks for the replies. I would have gotten into my car and left in a hurry if would have had the chance to do so safely, with my GSD on the bumber and all my fishing gear and cooler on the ground behind the car, it wouldhave taken too much time to repack and plus my back would have been to them. It was a scary situation that I hope never happens again. I did call the sheriff afterwards and I never saw a deputy come around the lake in the time I stayed there. I didn't want to shoot anyone but I would have if the situation had become any more volitile....I'm thankful I had my GSD and my pistol with me, as I feel they saved my life, so many crazies out there these days, I actually went and bought 2 extra mags for my XD just in case I meet another threat such as this one. I am attaching a pic of my dog and my XD, thanks agaiin for all the responses and I'm glad to be on board with everyone
p/s thats a Bersa 380 with my springfield xd40
p/s thats a Bersa 380 with my springfield xd40
