Did I Get Real Black Talons?

Prosecutions in shootings are done based on the circumstances of the shootings, not on what kind of bullets are loaded in the ammo. If a shooting is righteous, it's righteous, regardless of the weapon or ammo used.

All this talk of prosecutors is sophomoric.
 
Does anyone know how long ago Winchester discontinued the original "Black Talons?" If memory serves, it was at least four or five years ago. I know, the BTs that I have are at least six years old. Now I'm not too worried about any possible legal ramifications from using these in my carry gun (yes I have a CHP) for one reason. Due to the age of the ammo, it would never find it's way into my carry gun unless said gun was at the range and I was doing a little target practice.
I don't know about any of you, but for self defense, I don't like to take a chance with ammo that is more than a year of so old. I know that it will continue to function for many years, but why take the chance?

Good luck and may none of you ever HAVE to use you carry gun.
 
>>Does anyone know how long ago Winchester discontinued the original "Black Talons?"

I actually have the receipts from the last bunch I bought shortly after they were discontinued. Everything is dated October and November 1993.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnochGale: Walt, you are a lawyer or specialist in this area? A forensic expert witness?

Data for your opinion please.[/quote]EnochGale, Have you ever read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Capt. Massad Ayoob, an active police captain with the Grantham, NH police department. He has served as a legal firearms expert in hundreds (if not thousands) of court cases -- both civil and criminal. While he does not talk about Black Talons in his book, he goes on to explain why it is better to use a .45ACP than a .38 special against an attacker. The arguement went something like this (I'm doing this from memory as I don't have the book in front of me so others are free to make additions/corrections as needsed) ...

"So, you really wanted to seriously hurt/kill this guy because you used a powerful .45ACP instead of a .38 special which would have had less chance of causing serious damage."

"No. It was because I wanted to cause as little injury as possible that I used a .45ACP instead of a .38 Special."

"Huh?"

"It was already established that I was justified in using deadly force. That being the case, I was legally justified to continue firing at my attacker until he was no longer a threat. Based on the historical shooting data of the .38 special and the .45ACP which you yourself submitted as evidence to the court, the .45ACP has much greater stopping/knock-down power than the .38 Special, historically speaking of course. Using a .45ACP ensured that I could put a quick end to the attack by firing a minimum of rounds thus reducing the numbers of holes in the attacker and therefore reducing the chances that he would bleed to death from those larger number of bullet holes from the .38 special."

... It goes on & on but I think that you get the point. The point being, that if the bullets are not actually banned and you are authorized in using deadly force, then there should be no problem in what type of bullet you use. As a matter of fact, the more effective/destructive the bullet is, the more Massad can argue that that bullet was the proper one to use over the others -- as long as the bullet in question is legal.

FUD
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[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 27, 2000).]
 
Walt, you are correct about righteous shootings. However, it's not prosecution that is the issue. It is when the "loving family" of the dearly departed suddenly materialize with their shyster for the almost-guaranteed civil case.

All they need do is convince a jury that you are some gun nut that uses armor-piercing, cop-killing, nuclear-tipped bullets against crooks trying to make an honest living. The burden of proof is FAR less in civil issues, and if they succeed, they could suddenly be living in your house and driving your car.

This BTW is one reason Mas rightly argues that one should also avoid using handloads as carrying ammo.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blackamos:
Just a quick note, Black talons where never banned, Winchester pulled them off the market before they could be banned.
F.Y.I. Amos[/quote]

And for this VERY reason all the folks that want S&W's head on a platter should ALSO want Winchester dead.
 
Nope, Winchester didn't enter into an agreement with the government that required dealers assume liability for the actions of third parties, among many other equally ridiculous provisions.

------------------
"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tecolote:
Nope, Winchester didn't enter into an agreement with the government that required dealers assume liability for the actions of third parties, among many other equally ridiculous provisions.

[/quote]

True enough but they still showed the same kind of anti-gun political "lets make nice with the gun-grabbers" PC attitude.

I am afraid one day ONLY cops will be able to buy Hollow-point hand gun ammo AND handguns for that matter.

The Black Talon/Ranger XT "police only" sale decision really seemed like the start of that. Thank God I haven't noticed any other ammo makers cave like that since then.
 
FUD, I know the Ayoob story quite well. I was being sarcastic to Walt.

Also, on some of the higher level tactics lists, experts state that ammo is brought up in a criminal trial. No one has been hanged for it yet.

So I agree that Black Talons are a liability.
Handloads are yet to be determined but since they might be a risk factor and factory ammo is fine - why take the risk?

As far as Winchester selling out - no - they made a marketing decision that affected only them. SW tried to take us all.
 
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