Did I Get Real Black Talons?

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doctorj

New member
Gunshop was selling "Black Talons" in 9mm. Actual marking on box was "Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement Ammunition 9mm SXT". The bullets sure looked like BTs, but the cases were brass. I though law enforcement grade ammo always uses nickel cases. Was this the top-of-the-line stuff?
 
I don't know if they're the same or not. The Black Talon's that I still have left from before they banned them several years ago say "Winchester Supreme Black Talon." The box also says "Deep penetrator" on it. The cases on them are nickel plated and the bullets have a black coating which I believe is teflon.

Incidentally, mine are 40S&W caliber and the bullet type is listed as "180 GR. SXT."

Don't know if this helps any but if the bullet design and powder are similar to the original black talons, then they'll probably perform similar.
 
What you purchased was supposed to be sold to Law Enforcement only, but there are no legal penalties for selling them that I am aware of. You could face some legal or Civil liability if you ever "used" your new ammo in defense of your life however.

The Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement Ammunition 9mm SXT is the very same BULLET used in the old "Black Talons", just without the black coating on it. Therefore, officially, it is not EXACTLY a black talon.

The actual function of the bullet coating was to decrease friction going down the barrel, which it did to some extent, not to penetrate body armour as many suggested. You are, IMHO, no less protected without the coating on it.

Hope this helps...
 
the guys at my regular range have a collection of bullets they've retrieved from whatever various things they hit. I don't know about the old Black Talons, but an expanded .40 SXT looks as spiny and wicked as a collection of thorns; they told me they were the same bullet, simply a more PC packaging. "These won't hurt nobody." they said. ;-)
 
Just a quick note, Black talons where never banned, Winchester pulled them off the market before they could be banned.
F.Y.I. Amos
 
Emergency Room folks really hate them, in this day and time of good old AIDS. Those sharp pieces cut gloves and fingers.

Art
 
If the box reads, "Winchester Ranger (R) SXT CONTROLLED EXPANSION, 9mm Luger, 147 Gr. SXT, Law Enfocement Ammunition," the cartridges are definitely the "Same Exact Thing." Black Talons, no matter the brass case. The coating on the bullets is as black as a raven's throat at midnight. At least up until two and one half years ago. I don't know after that.

FWIW. J.B.
 
FWIW, I bought a couple of boxes of Black Talon's that had been teaded back in a a local gun shop. The cases were nickel, the coating on the bullets was black, and the box is marked Winchester Supreme "Deep Penetrator" Black Talon, 9mm Luger, 147 GR. SXT.

BTW I love owning things people think I shouldn't. :)

------------------
Now here we have the mining man, in either hand a gun.
He is not afraid of anything, and he's never know a run,
He dearly loves his whiskey, and he dearly loves his beer.
He's a shooting, fighting, dynamiting, mining engineer.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Onslaught:
...You could face some legal or Civil liability if you ever "used" your new ammo in defense of your life however.

[/quote]

I thought using the same ammo as police was supposed to help PREVENT your ammo choice becoming an issue in an otherwise righteous shooting? If some shyster attacked you on the basis of using "nasty" ammo, he'd then be attacking police as well. It would be hard to argue with a defense that went "Well, since it's suitable for police defending the public, I followed their lead in choosing something to defend myself and my family."
 
If they are the original Black Talons, you make yourself look like a nut for a round that isn't that special.

If it is the new SXT version - you should be OK.
 
EnochGale, you make a good point. Two, actually - the "Nasty BT" connotation and the fact that the ammo wasn't that special. Since the original poster's ammo was in a box labeled "Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement Ammunition 9mm SXT" I wouldn't have a problem using it.

Unless they're 147 grain rounds. Given a choice, I wouldn't depend on those no matter what the label said...
 
HankB, I guarantee you those 147 gr. SXT (LE) Black Talons, work very well in real life shootings. I know of quite a few.

If a person is accurate with his/her shooting, they do the job. Inaccurate shooting will get you killed.

FWIW. J.B.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BTW I love owning things people think I shouldn't. [/quote]

And people love selling them to you at four times the price.
 
Onslaught is exactly correct on this issue. There's much better ammo out there for you these days. The Ranger load is pretty good in 10mm, but for everything else, there's a better load. Don't use this stuff for carry. you don't need what the prosecution will do to you.

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Ronnie
 
I load my G19 with 147gr Ranger SXT. I have lots of it left over from my LEO days. I don't see any legal liability problems if I'm forced to shoot a bad guy. If I'm justified to use deadly force in self-defense, my choice of ammo isn't going to matter.

The newer Ranger T loads are one of the best performing loads on the market today. The results of the RA40T load from a G27 through denim covered gelatin, as shown in the photos, demonstrates the expansion reliability of this line of ammo. I wish all bullets would expand as reliably through heavy cloth as does the Ranger T line.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
If I'm not mistaken, the coating is not teflon, but Mollybedulum (i know it's spelled wrong) a lubricant which allows higher velocity with less pressure and recoil. This is the same thing used on many commercial lead bullets as a lube. Our dept. just switch over to Federal Tactical Hollowpoints that also have a lubricant coating on them to increase velocity with lower recoil.
By the way, anyone know where I can get some 10mm ranger ammo? I don't believe it's been manufactured for a few years. From what I've seen, that ranger ammo expands better in cloth than anything else out there.
 
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